4 ms·

I have this exact same problem. I see merchandise and slogans and whatnot targeting the "geek culture". I hate that stuff, the "witty" and "nerdy" T-shirts wit

I have this exact same problem. I see merchandise and slogans and whatnot targeting the "geek culture". I hate that stuff, the "witty" and "nerdy" T-shirts with stupid inner jokes about programming, I hate the "developer-targeted" ads with stereotypical geek talk I'm bombarded with, I hate all that, and would never want to be a part of it. I feel it's the same that these women get because tech is getting pink. But I respond to this by ignoring what annoys me. I don't feel offended when I, as someone who likes to program, is looked at through the eyes of these "geek" stereotypes. Why are these women so offended because someone is catering to some stereotypes that apply to women? I don't feel degraded when companies try to get me to purchase their VPS hosting by targeting me with ads that cater to stereotypes that apply to developers. This kind of stuff will always happen to almost all demographics. Quite honestly, from my position, I think this is overreacting. Of course I would love to see more women in tech, and I would do all I can to help that happen. But I think this is fighting a wrong fight. There ought to be some work on helping teenage girls overcome the stereotypes about tech they acquire in high school. But this just seems getting offended because of something that happens to everyone who is part of a certain demographic. I see that this kind of comment is strongly frowned upon, so if you downvote, please be so kind as to also reply to me and explain your viewpoint on this.

hyperpape 12y ago
Two things: first people are different, and "it doesn't bother me" doesn't necessarily mean it shouldn't bother someone else. Second, and probably more importantly, there is an issue of scale. I find the Big Bang Theory stupid and obnoxious, but I don't think any stereotyping I've dealt with in my life matches what I hear about from friends of mine who are Black or women or Muslim. It's easier to be easygoing about things when you know that they won't really affect you.
- thegeomaster 12y ago
  Yes, people are different, and you're right that when something doesn't bother me doesn't mean that it shouldn't bother anyone else. But we need to draw a line where a "this bothers me" said by someone is actually meaningful and not oversensitivity. I think we can agree on that one, because a world where small and harmless statements that are in no way degrading can be deemed "offensive" by a very small group of people and judged because of that, would be a chaos. Some reasonable threshold must be there. Reasonable, of course. We shouldn't also allow really offensive and malicious statements and viewpoints and actions to slip by. I cannot stress this enough. I can testify that people who are seen as geeks and/or nerds are very heavily stereotyped. I know I've been shaken off by a girl on one occasion when I mentioned my field of study, no joke. It's an extreme example, but the pendulum can swing both ways. But I didn't feel like the "female culture" was unwelcoming to programmers :) I just thought about how I met an isolated case of an idiot, and of course, that's how it is. I still haven't heard someone say or allude that women, or a woman, is intrinsically less capable with tech-related crafts. I believe, though, that there are people who think that way. But I at least hope they're isolated cases, and I believe that they will be met with scorn from others just as much as they would from me, and that their behavior won't be tolerated.
  - watwut 12y ago
    "I still haven't heard someone say or allude that women, or a woman, is intrinsically less capable with tech-related crafts. " I got told that twice if I recall right. Once while in highschool and once by colleague. I also had a professor ask me why did I not studied field supposedly easier for women (it was before exam, he had no idea what I know and what I do not know). Then there were was assumption that I will happily do all the repetitive tasks and do not care about doing technically interesting work. I did not seen them doing such assumption for men. Those were direct experiences. Most people who have such opinions shut up about it, it is just that you have to prove yourself harder to get the same as colleague/school mate.
    - thegeomaster 12y ago
      I feel very uneasy when I hear stories like these. I just can't get into the heads of those people. It's as if I live in a different reality, I just cannot comprehend that. It's such a great pity if a woman gets discouraged from pursuing her goal because of those asswads. I don't want to leave an impression of turning a blind eye to the problem. I did say that I believe there are people who think like that, but I have a lowly opinion of them.
      - detcader 12y ago
        Is it so hard to agree with the idea that you do in fact live in a different reality? You and I are naturally blind to what women experience. Doing deductive reasoning is impossible -- the best tool in developing a holistic understanding of sex-based systems of inequality is: listening to what women have to say. And doing inducive reasoning based on that data that you didn't have before. This is the case generally, not just in software engineering.
DanBC 12y ago
You're applying your dislike of geek-targeted stuff to the wrong items. Stop thinking about how you react to t-shirts with stupid jokes about programming; imagine a cookery book assuming that you are, because you are a geek, incompetent in the kitchen and that you need help with buying eggs from the store and need instructions on how to cook eggs. Or imagine a set of low quality kitchen equipment that has those "Roses are #ff0000" style slogans on. Does that in anyway make cooking more accessible to you? A bunch of people on HN are good at cooking. They don't want that kind of pointless targeting. They want better specs, better access to information, and so on. I imagine, but I do not know, that women don't just want pink colour themes for their code editor.
detcader 12y ago
Women are historically and systematicall disadvanted as a class of people. "Geeks" hardly are -- in fact to become a target of "geek culture" marketing requires a significant degree of advantage in the first place. There's one difference.
watwut 12y ago
Because stereotypes that apply to women are usually about us being stupid, unable to manage finances, being weak, caring only about things like jewelry, not understanding politics, philosophy or anything that requires brain. If you see something pinkified or "for women", you can safely assume it is also dumbed down. It is not always so, but it happens to be true often enough. And mostly, while many people believe stereotypes about women and tend to judge individual women through them, I found that people are less prone to do the same with geek related stereotypes. If they know you are programmer, you get the benefit of the doubt and people are willing to accept you are not borderline autistic. On the other hand, convincing them you know your stuff is harder if you are women. Probably related, negative stereotypes about geeks are equally irritating if I hear them too much, but they are much easier to avoid. You just do not hear nor read them as often as some stupid jokes about women. There are also many positive stereotypes about geeks (geeks being geniuses), positive stereotypes about women ends up pretty much with us being "nurturing".
- detcader 12y ago
  Indeed, OP's claim that he has "the exact same problem" is a lie. There is danger in obfuscating the realities of being part of a social class.
  - thegeomaster 12y ago
    Please elaborate.
    - detcader 12y ago
      I refuse to try to say something better than what has already been said if I feel I couldn't do a better job [1] [1] http://web.calstatela.edu/faculty/tbettch/Frye,%20Oppression.pdf http://web.calstatela.edu/faculty/tbettch/Frye,%20Oppression...

hyperpape 12y ago

Two things: first people are different, and "it doesn't bother me" doesn't necessarily mean it shouldn't bother someone else. Second, and probably more importantly, there is an issue of scale. I find the Big Bang Theory stupid and obnoxious, but I don't think any stereotyping I've dealt with in my life matches what I hear about from friends of mine who are Black or women or Muslim. It's easier to be easygoing about things when you know that they won't really affect you.

thegeomaster 12y ago
Yes, people are different, and you're right that when something doesn't bother me doesn't mean that it shouldn't bother anyone else. But we need to draw a line where a "this bothers me" said by someone is actually meaningful and not oversensitivity. I think we can agree on that one, because a world where small and harmless statements that are in no way degrading can be deemed "offensive" by a very small group of people and judged because of that, would be a chaos. Some reasonable threshold must be there. Reasonable, of course. We shouldn't also allow really offensive and malicious statements and viewpoints and actions to slip by. I cannot stress this enough. I can testify that people who are seen as geeks and/or nerds are very heavily stereotyped. I know I've been shaken off by a girl on one occasion when I mentioned my field of study, no joke. It's an extreme example, but the pendulum can swing both ways. But I didn't feel like the "female culture" was unwelcoming to programmers :) I just thought about how I met an isolated case of an idiot, and of course, that's how it is. I still haven't heard someone say or allude that women, or a woman, is intrinsically less capable with tech-related crafts. I believe, though, that there are people who think that way. But I at least hope they're isolated cases, and I believe that they will be met with scorn from others just as much as they would from me, and that their behavior won't be tolerated.
- watwut 12y ago
  "I still haven't heard someone say or allude that women, or a woman, is intrinsically less capable with tech-related crafts. " I got told that twice if I recall right. Once while in highschool and once by colleague. I also had a professor ask me why did I not studied field supposedly easier for women (it was before exam, he had no idea what I know and what I do not know). Then there were was assumption that I will happily do all the repetitive tasks and do not care about doing technically interesting work. I did not seen them doing such assumption for men. Those were direct experiences. Most people who have such opinions shut up about it, it is just that you have to prove yourself harder to get the same as colleague/school mate.
  - thegeomaster 12y ago
    I feel very uneasy when I hear stories like these. I just can't get into the heads of those people. It's as if I live in a different reality, I just cannot comprehend that. It's such a great pity if a woman gets discouraged from pursuing her goal because of those asswads. I don't want to leave an impression of turning a blind eye to the problem. I did say that I believe there are people who think like that, but I have a lowly opinion of them.
    - detcader 12y ago
      Is it so hard to agree with the idea that you do in fact live in a different reality? You and I are naturally blind to what women experience. Doing deductive reasoning is impossible -- the best tool in developing a holistic understanding of sex-based systems of inequality is: listening to what women have to say. And doing inducive reasoning based on that data that you didn't have before. This is the case generally, not just in software engineering.

DanBC 12y ago

You're applying your dislike of geek-targeted stuff to the wrong items. Stop thinking about how you react to t-shirts with stupid jokes about programming; imagine a cookery book assuming that you are, because you are a geek, incompetent in the kitchen and that you need help with buying eggs from the store and need instructions on how to cook eggs. Or imagine a set of low quality kitchen equipment that has those "Roses are #ff0000" style slogans on. Does that in anyway make cooking more accessible to you? A bunch of people on HN are good at cooking. They don't want that kind of pointless targeting. They want better specs, better access to information, and so on. I imagine, but I do not know, that women don't just want pink colour themes for their code editor.

detcader 12y ago

Women are historically and systematicall disadvanted as a class of people. "Geeks" hardly are -- in fact to become a target of "geek culture" marketing requires a significant degree of advantage in the first place. There's one difference.

watwut 12y ago

Because stereotypes that apply to women are usually about us being stupid, unable to manage finances, being weak, caring only about things like jewelry, not understanding politics, philosophy or anything that requires brain. If you see something pinkified or "for women", you can safely assume it is also dumbed down. It is not always so, but it happens to be true often enough. And mostly, while many people believe stereotypes about women and tend to judge individual women through them, I found that people are less prone to do the same with geek related stereotypes. If they know you are programmer, you get the benefit of the doubt and people are willing to accept you are not borderline autistic. On the other hand, convincing them you know your stuff is harder if you are women. Probably related, negative stereotypes about geeks are equally irritating if I hear them too much, but they are much easier to avoid. You just do not hear nor read them as often as some stupid jokes about women. There are also many positive stereotypes about geeks (geeks being geniuses), positive stereotypes about women ends up pretty much with us being "nurturing".

detcader 12y ago
Indeed, OP's claim that he has "the exact same problem" is a lie. There is danger in obfuscating the realities of being part of a social class.
- thegeomaster 12y ago
  Please elaborate.
  - detcader 12y ago
    I refuse to try to say something better than what has already been said if I feel I couldn't do a better job [1] [1] http://web.calstatela.edu/faculty/tbettch/Frye,%20Oppression.pdf http://web.calstatela.edu/faculty/tbettch/Frye,%20Oppression...