8 ms·

How to take down an F-117

125 points by TriinT 17y ago

davidw 17y ago
By flagging it?
rdtsc 17y ago
> Zoltan never lost a radar to a HARM missile. That is very impressive. If he only had serious computing power, enough cell phone towers, and plenty of fiber-optic cable, he could have triangulated the position of steal bombers from the interference patterns. Also, old Soviet radars operate on longer wavelengths and interestingly enough are sometimes more effective at detecting stealth aircraft.
- TriinT 17y ago
  "Old Soviet radars operate on longer wavelengths and interestingly enough are sometimes more effective at detecting stealth aircraft." The fuselage of the F-117 is covered with a top-secret radiation-absorbing paint. This paint is designed to operate over a certain range of frequencies, i.e., it's supposed to provide impedance matching over a certain frequency band (a bit like a thin-film in optics). Hence, if the enemy uses radars operating at frequencies for which the F-117 is not stealth, then there's a big problem. Using an old German radar from WW2 the F-117's radar signature is as big as the one of a non-stealth aircraft like the F/A-18. BTW, Zoltan (who is a Serb of Hungarian ethnicity, as the name suggests) is now a baker: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zolt%C3%A1n_Dani http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zolt%C3%A1n_Dani
  - gaius 17y ago
    http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-10-26-serb-stealth_x.htm http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-10-26-serb-stealth_x... "Dani said that his unit has had annual reunions on every March 27 since 1999 when a cake in the shape of the F-117 is served." Nice!
    - TriinT 17y ago
      "The Americans entered the war a bit overconfident. They thought they could crush us without real resistance. At times, they acted like amateurs," Dani said, listing some ways the Serbs managed to breach NATO communications security, including eavesdropping on pilots' conversations with AWACS surveillance planes. "I personally listened to their pilots' conversations, learning about their routes and bombing plans," Dani said. So, the world's best Air Force goes to war and does not use encrypted communications? This is mind-boggling. To make matters worse, the NATO planes tended to follow the same routes every night. They were begging to be shot down. Last but not least, never underestimate the ferocity and tenacity of the Serbs. The Ottomans and the Nazis sure learned their lesson.
      - gaius 17y ago
        Complacency is often the downfall of large organizations. And it's complacency at high levels; Joe Pilot probably knew all about crypto, varying his routes, etc, but Jane General wouldn't sign off on the budget. That scenario will be familiar to anyone who's worked for a big company.
        demallien 17y ago
        As an ex RAAF radar engineer, I'd say you're around about 180 degrees out of phase. There is always money available for security measures such as crypto etc - it's installed in all US aircraft(and indeed in nearly all of their allies' aircraft), and if it wasn't being used, it would be because people couldn't get their act together to keep keys synchronised and other bothersome administrative details. It would indicate a lack of discipline, particularly in the 'middle-management' level (around about Colonel level), not a lack of money. That said, I'm personally dubious about this story being true - it reads more like a Serbian trying to explain how clever he was against the dumb Americans, even though his country got its butt kicked. Certainly for the AWACS guys, comms security is their bread-and-butter, so I'd be really surprised to learn that they stuffed it up so badly...
        varjag 17y ago
gaius 17y ago
Interesting article about how a few talented individuals on a shoestring budget can take on established, well-funded competitors.
- jedc 17y ago
  Definitely. It's quite similar to what John Boyd and his acolytes have talked about regarding military strategy for years. I recommend "Certain to Win" by Chet Richards for a digestible summary.
- pvg 17y ago
  Is it? It's very difficult to tell given the paucity of details. The 'well-funded, established competitor' was, for instance, able to extract the pilot within 8 hours. Beside the larger point that it was able to achieve its military and political objectives.
  - jobu 17y ago
    A guy with 200 soldiers and a few $20K missiles brought down $60M worth of US equipment. In the big picture it had no effect, but most people enjoy the underdog story.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  this is what the remainder looks like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:F-117_canopy.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:F-117_canopy.jpg
JacobAldridge 17y ago
He plastered the F-117 interface with so many ads and links to unrelated stories that it became so painful to navigate, read, and comprehend that the pilots sent the plane downward.
mct 17y ago
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-117_Nighthawk#Combat_losses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-117_Nighthawk#Combat_losses, the wreckage is now on display at the Museum of Aviation in Belgrade.
ivankirigin 17y ago
I had heard the F-117 bomb bay doors failed to close, causing the stealth to be lost. That wasn't mentioned here though.
- TriinT 17y ago
  Here's Lt. Col. Dale Zelko (the pilot of the F-117 that was shot down) telling what happened on the night of March 27th, 1999. It includes actual recordings of radio conversations (turn up the volume): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmqLyn4Q15U http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmqLyn4Q15U
akamaka 17y ago
Cool article. I've also read that they used parts from ordinary household microwaves to create fake targets for the US anti-radiation missiles. Something that's sorely lacking from the article is any information on US long-term strategy. Did the US air force use the full range of jamming and deception technology at their disposl, or were they content to lose a few planes to keep their true capabilities secret?
onreact-com 17y ago
I still can't believe the US and NATO have bombarded Serbia which is a country in the heart of Europe. This just shows that any country can be attacked. Btw. the reasons for invading Serbia back then have been debunked as propaganda later on in the same way the Iraq war excuses have been debunked. There were no Serbian concentration camps etc.
- yangyang 17y ago
  References?
  - onreact-com 17y ago
    http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/6017 http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/6017
    - DanielBMarkham 17y ago
      The stated purpose of FPIF's work is the maxim that "U.S. security and world stability are best advanced through a commitment to peace, justice and environmental protection as well as economic, political, and social rights"
- JanezStupar 17y ago
  Youre statements are propaganda (if any). I'm a citizen of one of countries of former republic of Yugoslavia. I know people from all involved countries. I've been to most of these countries and I know what are the facts of Serb agenda and what were the results. They were no more victims than Germans in WW2. Edit: About half of referenced article is truth and makes sense. However article is taken out of context of 90' on balkans. IMHO NATO intervention had a lot to do with feeling of guilt of NATO members for allowing the Bosnia debacle. Most westerners don't understand that Kosovo is Serbian hallow ground and that they would exterminate Albanians without thinking twice (once they were already on rampage). Short term this was probably the only solution. Long term there will be more bloodbath in Kosovo.
giardini 17y ago
That's a lot of work to shoot down one or two planes. Was he a good military leader? If you lose the battle but don't lose a single man then one might question your willingness to engage the enemy, a necessary unpleasantry of war. His men undoubtedly most appreciated him because he kept them out of combat and alive. And was the plane detected/shot down because of the defenders' skills or were there plane malfunctions, etc.?
mattmaroon 17y ago
I've read in the past that he didn't actually hit the F-117. That unit has no radar warning for incoming missile. The pilot saw one coming in, giving him only a few seconds to react, and he ejected. The missile would not have hit the plane.
- pvg 17y ago
  That's not quite what the pilot says. This is from an interview - Lt. Col. Dale Zelko - The first missile went right over the top of me. So close, actually, that I was surprised it didn’t proximity fuse on me. I could feel the shock wave of it buffeting the aircraft. As soon as it went over I quickly re-acquired the second missile visually and when I did, I thought: “It’s goin’ to run right into me.” And it sure felt like it did. RFA - So it was a direct hit? Lt. Col. Dale Zelko - It may have proximity fused, I don’t know absolutely. In theory, if it didn’t have a warhead in it, if it was just a harpoon or a tree trunk, would it have gone through my aircraft? I don't know for certain. But if you look at the photos of the wreckage my entire left wing is missing. [...] The impact was extremely violent and slammed the aircraft into a left roll, negative g tuck. I estimate seven, if not more negative Gs which is enormous.
  - mattmaroon 17y ago
    I guess the pilot of the aircraft probably has better information than whoever wrote whatever I read on the net somewhere years ago.
- CamperBob 17y ago
  I don't know about the USAF, but that particular combat tactic gets you a royal ass-chewing in Wing Commander.
- run4yourlives 17y ago
  I would argue that the point you make is irrelevant. Col. Zoltan did enough to both prevent the aircraft form flying its mission and score a big -1 on the depth chart for the US. Double win.
electronslave 17y ago
This article provides no information about shooting stealth aircraft out of the sky with surplus Soviet weapons. I claim false advertising and would like my 30 seconds back.
- run4yourlives 17y ago
  Just get your hands on one of these. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SA-7 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SA-7 1. Turn on 2. Point 3. Shoot 4. Run away.
  - electronslave 17y ago
    On a related note, I have a special place in my heart for this beast: http://www.controller.com/listings/detail.aspx?OHID=1084742 http://www.controller.com/listings/detail.aspx?OHID=1084742
    - run4yourlives 17y ago
      Yuck. Really, you like that thing? IMO, if you're going Soviet heritage, it begins and ends al-Fresco. :-)
      - electronslave 17y ago
        Yes, I really like that thing. Performance at cruise on the Туманскиы Р35-500 is 40.21 kN, which puts it at just about Mach speeds. For $45k. That. That is entertainment.
        run4yourlives 17y ago
        $89K is just the acquisition cost. Try getting a part for it. You'd be better of with the Albatross, even if it is slower. :) I share your appreciation of speed though.
        17y ago

125 points by TriinT 17y ago

By flagging it?

rdtsc 17y ago

> Zoltan never lost a radar to a HARM missile. That is very impressive. If he only had serious computing power, enough cell phone towers, and plenty of fiber-optic cable, he could have triangulated the position of steal bombers from the interference patterns. Also, old Soviet radars operate on longer wavelengths and interestingly enough are sometimes more effective at detecting stealth aircraft.

TriinT 17y ago
"Old Soviet radars operate on longer wavelengths and interestingly enough are sometimes more effective at detecting stealth aircraft." The fuselage of the F-117 is covered with a top-secret radiation-absorbing paint. This paint is designed to operate over a certain range of frequencies, i.e., it's supposed to provide impedance matching over a certain frequency band (a bit like a thin-film in optics). Hence, if the enemy uses radars operating at frequencies for which the F-117 is not stealth, then there's a big problem. Using an old German radar from WW2 the F-117's radar signature is as big as the one of a non-stealth aircraft like the F/A-18. BTW, Zoltan (who is a Serb of Hungarian ethnicity, as the name suggests) is now a baker: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zolt%C3%A1n_Dani http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zolt%C3%A1n_Dani
- gaius 17y ago
  http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-10-26-serb-stealth_x.htm http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-10-26-serb-stealth_x... "Dani said that his unit has had annual reunions on every March 27 since 1999 when a cake in the shape of the F-117 is served." Nice!
  - TriinT 17y ago
    "The Americans entered the war a bit overconfident. They thought they could crush us without real resistance. At times, they acted like amateurs," Dani said, listing some ways the Serbs managed to breach NATO communications security, including eavesdropping on pilots' conversations with AWACS surveillance planes. "I personally listened to their pilots' conversations, learning about their routes and bombing plans," Dani said. So, the world's best Air Force goes to war and does not use encrypted communications? This is mind-boggling. To make matters worse, the NATO planes tended to follow the same routes every night. They were begging to be shot down. Last but not least, never underestimate the ferocity and tenacity of the Serbs. The Ottomans and the Nazis sure learned their lesson.
    - gaius 17y ago
      Complacency is often the downfall of large organizations. And it's complacency at high levels; Joe Pilot probably knew all about crypto, varying his routes, etc, but Jane General wouldn't sign off on the budget. That scenario will be familiar to anyone who's worked for a big company.
      - demallien 17y ago
        As an ex RAAF radar engineer, I'd say you're around about 180 degrees out of phase. There is always money available for security measures such as crypto etc - it's installed in all US aircraft(and indeed in nearly all of their allies' aircraft), and if it wasn't being used, it would be because people couldn't get their act together to keep keys synchronised and other bothersome administrative details. It would indicate a lack of discipline, particularly in the 'middle-management' level (around about Colonel level), not a lack of money. That said, I'm personally dubious about this story being true - it reads more like a Serbian trying to explain how clever he was against the dumb Americans, even though his country got its butt kicked. Certainly for the AWACS guys, comms security is their bread-and-butter, so I'd be really surprised to learn that they stuffed it up so badly...
        varjag 17y ago

gaius 17y ago

Interesting article about how a few talented individuals on a shoestring budget can take on established, well-funded competitors.

jedc 17y ago
Definitely. It's quite similar to what John Boyd and his acolytes have talked about regarding military strategy for years. I recommend "Certain to Win" by Chet Richards for a digestible summary.
pvg 17y ago
Is it? It's very difficult to tell given the paucity of details. The 'well-funded, established competitor' was, for instance, able to extract the pilot within 8 hours. Beside the larger point that it was able to achieve its military and political objectives.
- jobu 17y ago
  A guy with 200 soldiers and a few $20K missiles brought down $60M worth of US equipment. In the big picture it had no effect, but most people enjoy the underdog story.
jacquesm 17y ago
this is what the remainder looks like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:F-117_canopy.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:F-117_canopy.jpg

JacobAldridge 17y ago

He plastered the F-117 interface with so many ads and links to unrelated stories that it became so painful to navigate, read, and comprehend that the pilots sent the plane downward.

mct 17y ago

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-117_Nighthawk#Combat_losses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-117_Nighthawk#Combat_losses, the wreckage is now on display at the Museum of Aviation in Belgrade.

ivankirigin 17y ago

I had heard the F-117 bomb bay doors failed to close, causing the stealth to be lost. That wasn't mentioned here though.

TriinT 17y ago
Here's Lt. Col. Dale Zelko (the pilot of the F-117 that was shot down) telling what happened on the night of March 27th, 1999. It includes actual recordings of radio conversations (turn up the volume): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmqLyn4Q15U http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmqLyn4Q15U

akamaka 17y ago

Cool article. I've also read that they used parts from ordinary household microwaves to create fake targets for the US anti-radiation missiles. Something that's sorely lacking from the article is any information on US long-term strategy. Did the US air force use the full range of jamming and deception technology at their disposl, or were they content to lose a few planes to keep their true capabilities secret?

onreact-com 17y ago

I still can't believe the US and NATO have bombarded Serbia which is a country in the heart of Europe. This just shows that any country can be attacked. Btw. the reasons for invading Serbia back then have been debunked as propaganda later on in the same way the Iraq war excuses have been debunked. There were no Serbian concentration camps etc.

yangyang 17y ago
References?
- onreact-com 17y ago
  http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/6017 http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/6017
  - DanielBMarkham 17y ago
    The stated purpose of FPIF's work is the maxim that "U.S. security and world stability are best advanced through a commitment to peace, justice and environmental protection as well as economic, political, and social rights"
JanezStupar 17y ago
Youre statements are propaganda (if any). I'm a citizen of one of countries of former republic of Yugoslavia. I know people from all involved countries. I've been to most of these countries and I know what are the facts of Serb agenda and what were the results. They were no more victims than Germans in WW2. Edit: About half of referenced article is truth and makes sense. However article is taken out of context of 90' on balkans. IMHO NATO intervention had a lot to do with feeling of guilt of NATO members for allowing the Bosnia debacle. Most westerners don't understand that Kosovo is Serbian hallow ground and that they would exterminate Albanians without thinking twice (once they were already on rampage). Short term this was probably the only solution. Long term there will be more bloodbath in Kosovo.

giardini 17y ago

That's a lot of work to shoot down one or two planes. Was he a good military leader? If you lose the battle but don't lose a single man then one might question your willingness to engage the enemy, a necessary unpleasantry of war. His men undoubtedly most appreciated him because he kept them out of combat and alive. And was the plane detected/shot down because of the defenders' skills or were there plane malfunctions, etc.?

mattmaroon 17y ago

I've read in the past that he didn't actually hit the F-117. That unit has no radar warning for incoming missile. The pilot saw one coming in, giving him only a few seconds to react, and he ejected. The missile would not have hit the plane.

pvg 17y ago
That's not quite what the pilot says. This is from an interview - Lt. Col. Dale Zelko - The first missile went right over the top of me. So close, actually, that I was surprised it didn’t proximity fuse on me. I could feel the shock wave of it buffeting the aircraft. As soon as it went over I quickly re-acquired the second missile visually and when I did, I thought: “It’s goin’ to run right into me.” And it sure felt like it did. RFA - So it was a direct hit? Lt. Col. Dale Zelko - It may have proximity fused, I don’t know absolutely. In theory, if it didn’t have a warhead in it, if it was just a harpoon or a tree trunk, would it have gone through my aircraft? I don't know for certain. But if you look at the photos of the wreckage my entire left wing is missing. [...] The impact was extremely violent and slammed the aircraft into a left roll, negative g tuck. I estimate seven, if not more negative Gs which is enormous.
- mattmaroon 17y ago
  I guess the pilot of the aircraft probably has better information than whoever wrote whatever I read on the net somewhere years ago.
CamperBob 17y ago
I don't know about the USAF, but that particular combat tactic gets you a royal ass-chewing in Wing Commander.
run4yourlives 17y ago
I would argue that the point you make is irrelevant. Col. Zoltan did enough to both prevent the aircraft form flying its mission and score a big -1 on the depth chart for the US. Double win.

electronslave 17y ago

This article provides no information about shooting stealth aircraft out of the sky with surplus Soviet weapons. I claim false advertising and would like my 30 seconds back.

run4yourlives 17y ago
Just get your hands on one of these. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SA-7 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SA-7 1. Turn on 2. Point 3. Shoot 4. Run away.
- electronslave 17y ago
  On a related note, I have a special place in my heart for this beast: http://www.controller.com/listings/detail.aspx?OHID=1084742 http://www.controller.com/listings/detail.aspx?OHID=1084742
  - run4yourlives 17y ago
    Yuck. Really, you like that thing? IMO, if you're going Soviet heritage, it begins and ends al-Fresco. :-)
    - electronslave 17y ago
      Yes, I really like that thing. Performance at cruise on the Туманскиы Р35-500 is 40.21 kN, which puts it at just about Mach speeds. For $45k. That. That is entertainment.
      - run4yourlives 17y ago
        $89K is just the acquisition cost. Try getting a part for it. You'd be better of with the Albatross, even if it is slower. :) I share your appreciation of speed though.
        17y ago