3 ms·

The most obnoxious boss I ever had was a fellow programmer, and the problem wasn't that he was a turncoat. He was just obnoxious. I think you could take the pro

The most obnoxious boss I ever had was a fellow programmer, and the problem wasn't that he was a turncoat. He was just obnoxious. I think you could take the problem you're describing and generalize it to any manager-managee relationship, and it reduces to simple bad management. Some managers will be attentive and make positive contributions, others will be inattentive and destructive. The latter style is self-defeating, and that's going to be hard to get away with forever.

michaelochurch 12y ago
I don't know this person, but did you ever think that his obnoxiousness is the result of a broken culture of anti-intellecutalism, recklessness, and machismo that emerges naturally in a world where programmers are business subordinates, as opposed to one in which we are autonomous professionals who are sponsored rather than traditionally employed or managed? It's not like obnoxious bosses have a tribal affiliation to "managers" versus programmers. Sure, there are some who consciously think that way, but I don't think it's the norm. The insufferable management consultant fuckheads who comprise MBA Culture don't have any conscious allegiance to "MBA Culture". They have an entitled way of thinking, for sure, but and some executives do think tribally, but I don't think that a mentality of conscious allegiance among and to "business people" is the norm.
- mtdewcmu 12y ago
  The boss I'm talking about is a special case and one-of-a-kind as far as I know. He also happens to be foreign-born and from a country that I don't know much about. But he admitted once that his friends had nick-named him Eeyore on account of his not-so-sunny disposition, so I think being obnoxious was/is a cross he has to bear alone. I'm too far removed from corporate culture right now to really feel what you're saying. But Zed Shaw seemed to have similar gripes and he is very funny. I'm sure you know of him, but if not, look him up.
  - mtdewcmu 12y ago
    I wonder if my comment was downvoted because I made him sound as if he was cursed with some condition outside of his control and that's all. I feel sorry for people who have self-defeating patterns of behavior that cause them problems -- even if I, myself, could not stand to be around them, because I don't believe anyone would willingly choose to have problems. This boss may well have even been in that category. Who knows. But in point of fact, his behavior was frankly abusive, vindictive, and bullying toward me, and he would throw demonstrative fits of temper and behave in ways that I've never thought possible to get away with in a workplace, all the while being very personal and spewing pure hate. When this type of person is your boss, it only makes it so much harder to deal with.
TheOtherHobbes 12y ago
The key element is motivation. Good managers are about getting the job done. Bad managers are all about abusing the people under them to make themselves feel more important. These are not compatible goals. One of the tragedies of MBA culture is that it teaches businesses to screw over employees, customers, and often shareholders too. There's no sense of making a contribution - it's all about being the criminal with the knife, taking on people who can't defend themselves or don't even understand they're being mugged.
- michaelochurch 12y ago
  Good managers are about getting the job done. Bad managers are all about abusing the people under them to make themselves feel more important. I agree but it's not that simple. Most bad managers (the garden variety bad ones, not the psychopaths) aren't trying to abuse the people under them, but are trying to make themselves look good at any cost. They often look like they're making "hard choices" (i.e. choices against the interests of others in the organization, including their reports) in the interest of "getting the job done" but they're actually externalizing costs or pushing problems into the future. I would say that good managers try to direct action toward the shared interests of the employees and the organization. Good management tries to prevent those kinds of conflicts, long before they've become obvious, because when the organization and employee play against each other, it starts getting bad for everyone. As you correctly mentioned, MBA culture is all about squeezing pennies out of every transaction, which endangers any hope of good will in the business.
  - mtdewcmu 12y ago
    I agree that most managers, even if they are bad, would not abuse people under them just because it feels gratifying. That kind of behavior would be a really strong indicator of a serious mental problem. Most of the time the abuse pattern would be more about neglect or a failure of empathy. The abuse might be in plain sight and look calculated to inflict pain, but the manager would either be oblivious or practicing denial. Their attention would be on some other priority, like pleasing their own superior.

michaelochurch 12y ago

I don't know this person, but did you ever think that his obnoxiousness is the result of a broken culture of anti-intellecutalism, recklessness, and machismo that emerges naturally in a world where programmers are business subordinates, as opposed to one in which we are autonomous professionals who are sponsored rather than traditionally employed or managed? It's not like obnoxious bosses have a tribal affiliation to "managers" versus programmers. Sure, there are some who consciously think that way, but I don't think it's the norm. The insufferable management consultant fuckheads who comprise MBA Culture don't have any conscious allegiance to "MBA Culture". They have an entitled way of thinking, for sure, but and some executives do think tribally, but I don't think that a mentality of conscious allegiance among and to "business people" is the norm.

mtdewcmu 12y ago
The boss I'm talking about is a special case and one-of-a-kind as far as I know. He also happens to be foreign-born and from a country that I don't know much about. But he admitted once that his friends had nick-named him Eeyore on account of his not-so-sunny disposition, so I think being obnoxious was/is a cross he has to bear alone. I'm too far removed from corporate culture right now to really feel what you're saying. But Zed Shaw seemed to have similar gripes and he is very funny. I'm sure you know of him, but if not, look him up.
- mtdewcmu 12y ago
  I wonder if my comment was downvoted because I made him sound as if he was cursed with some condition outside of his control and that's all. I feel sorry for people who have self-defeating patterns of behavior that cause them problems -- even if I, myself, could not stand to be around them, because I don't believe anyone would willingly choose to have problems. This boss may well have even been in that category. Who knows. But in point of fact, his behavior was frankly abusive, vindictive, and bullying toward me, and he would throw demonstrative fits of temper and behave in ways that I've never thought possible to get away with in a workplace, all the while being very personal and spewing pure hate. When this type of person is your boss, it only makes it so much harder to deal with.

TheOtherHobbes 12y ago

The key element is motivation. Good managers are about getting the job done. Bad managers are all about abusing the people under them to make themselves feel more important. These are not compatible goals. One of the tragedies of MBA culture is that it teaches businesses to screw over employees, customers, and often shareholders too. There's no sense of making a contribution - it's all about being the criminal with the knife, taking on people who can't defend themselves or don't even understand they're being mugged.

michaelochurch 12y ago
Good managers are about getting the job done. Bad managers are all about abusing the people under them to make themselves feel more important. I agree but it's not that simple. Most bad managers (the garden variety bad ones, not the psychopaths) aren't trying to abuse the people under them, but are trying to make themselves look good at any cost. They often look like they're making "hard choices" (i.e. choices against the interests of others in the organization, including their reports) in the interest of "getting the job done" but they're actually externalizing costs or pushing problems into the future. I would say that good managers try to direct action toward the shared interests of the employees and the organization. Good management tries to prevent those kinds of conflicts, long before they've become obvious, because when the organization and employee play against each other, it starts getting bad for everyone. As you correctly mentioned, MBA culture is all about squeezing pennies out of every transaction, which endangers any hope of good will in the business.
- mtdewcmu 12y ago
  I agree that most managers, even if they are bad, would not abuse people under them just because it feels gratifying. That kind of behavior would be a really strong indicator of a serious mental problem. Most of the time the abuse pattern would be more about neglect or a failure of empathy. The abuse might be in plain sight and look calculated to inflict pain, but the manager would either be oblivious or practicing denial. Their attention would be on some other priority, like pleasing their own superior.