7 ms·

Inside the libertarian version of Burning Man: Guns, booze and bitcoin

30 points by mjwhansen 12y ago

fauvenoire 12y ago
I have to say that, as an attendee, this is hyperbolic nonsense. PorcFest was one of the most cooperative, congenial, and positive environments that I have been a part of. It was also, remarkably, family friendly. This reporter decided not to represent the zeitgeist of the event in order to paint a cartoonish picture of people abandoning the puritanical and violently overbearing status quo.
dsr_ 12y ago
There appears to be a government of sorts, but because everyone is busy denying that there is a government, the decisions can't be appealed.
- lotsofmangos 12y ago
  It looks like a heavily armed repeat of some of the '60s hippie commune experiments.
- Coffeewine 12y ago
  Or, more primaly, you appeal the decisions by forming your own, larger, like minded group. It is very interesting to observe the natural tension between the strongly individualistic ethos and the fact that it's essentially impossible to accomplish anything socially without collective action.
- leoedin 12y ago
  In the absence of formal command structures it's human nature for informal ones to form. This is a theme that comes up time and time again when reading about organisations with very flat management structures (eg Valve and Corel). It turns out that while formal management structures can have accountability and systems to deal with unfair actions, informal ones can't. I know which one I'd prefer to work under.
Malarkey73 12y ago
“It’s great to be around people who understand. I don’t get how the left won’t just admit that income tax is theft. Who cares if it’s for a good cause?" Said the guy who drove to the festival on the trillion dollar road network.
- sneak 12y ago
  Tax is theft even if used to benefit the person it was stolen from, which was the point of the very next sentence.
- jonnycowboy 12y ago
  In this case he should be for a pay per use roadway (toll road).
  - sillysaurus3 12y ago
    Police services, fire services, subsidizing families who can't afford food + gas + monthly bills, subsidizing students who can't afford school, the ability to help offset a recession (issue extra tax refunds)... The existing system has many advantages. What are some advantages of taxless governance?
    - obvious_throw 12y ago
      You are positing as axiomatic that subsidizing the indigent is an automatic good. Citation needed.
      - lhc- 12y ago
        I mean obviously, it would be better to just let them die in the street. Then there would be no more poor people, right?
        MCRed 12y ago
        False dichotomy. When the government takes up to %50 of a poor person's income in taxes (both direct and indirect), the claim that not taking half their income would result in them dying in the street seems a bit silly.
msrpotus 12y ago
What is it about "libertarian" versions of things that they always involve guns (and generally drunk people)?
- mcphage 12y ago
  > and generally drunk people I think that's pretty much every event where you get a bunch of people together in the woods :-)
- zo1 12y ago
  You say that as if those things are bad? They're not necessarily bad.
jedanbik 12y ago
So it's like a music festival with lots of guns? Sounds dangerous. Count me out.
- jMyles 12y ago
  It is, without a doubt, the least dangerous-feeling festival I've ever attended. In fact, I have never felt so free from fear.
tomphoolery 12y ago
Ironically, at the Burning Man events prior to 1996, you could shoot guns. :)
- metacorrector 12y ago
  Ironically, Burning Man prior to 1996 didn't make me want to shoot guns; now if they allowed me to carry, I don't think I could carry enough.
Nursie 12y ago
I still don't really understand libertarianism. I'm not sure what it is that gives someone the moral right to reserve a section of the surface of the earth by force of arms in a system where all violence is considered morally wrong (and so many things can be apparently considered violence). If you can use violence to take away my access to land, I don't see how that differs from the rest of us taking some of your income.
- jMyles 12y ago
  Many libertarians, including some as this festival, don't regard land property as absolute, or in some cases, even just at all. For example, some believe that they have a right to build and defend a home, but not a right to prevent people from reasonably traversing the land, so long as they don't disturb anything. Come to the festival and ask these questions; you'll be surprised at the diversity and sophistication of the answers you'll get.
  - mercer 12y ago
    That's a great recommendation, actually. I'm still shocked and embarrassed at how I once lumped all forms of libertarianism into the 'primitivist anarchism' pile, only to discover that a lot of thought and practice has gone into the various libertarian systems. I assumed, for the longest time, that they were all basically people who couldn't make life work or were lazy, and decided to rationalize this as a choice. The weed-smoking, squatting type who badly needs a shower and a haircut, and secretly relies on others for money and a safety-net (mind, all of these things don't necessarily go together!). Ironically, I spent much of my life as a Christian battling stereotypes that were based on American right-wing evangelical extremism. I should've known better. Experiencing some of these 'libertarian' environments and reading some of the literature painted a much more nuanced picture, and enriched my views tremendously, even if just because the views were so radically different from what I was familiar with. At some point in my life I decided that it would be good to spend significant effort to learn about views that are alien to me. Because even if they don't make a convincing argument in the end, they make me question whatever system I have in my head, and I feel that that's always a good thing.
- 12y ago
kevinkimball 12y ago
the article mentions that ~20 FSP people have been elected to the NH legislature at one point or another.However, it neglects to mention that the NH General Court has 424 members. Not much of an achievement in a state of 1.3m.
zo1 12y ago
"And this year, roughly 2,000 people - mostly white men - have paid between $45 and $100 to " You know, gotta keep pumping up that stereotype, hey: "Libertarians are nothing but a bunch of selfish rich white men."
- lclarkmichalek 12y ago
  If you did an article on bonobo or whatever music festival is popular with the kids these days, you'd probably mention the demographics attending. And if people think paying $45 is a lot to attend a festival, then... well let's hope they never try and attend a more mainstream event
- whybroke 12y ago
  Well let's look at a group photo: http://i.imgur.com/BTv37qB.jpg http://i.imgur.com/BTv37qB.jpg ahh yes, I think I see is a solitary black kid near the middle.
  - MCRed 12y ago
    Sure, just ignore all the asians, hispanics, women, etc in that photo. You're arguing in support of a prejudice that says "only white males are libertarians therefore we don't have to listen to their arguments". It's anti-intellectual.
    - dublinben 12y ago
      >Sure, just ignore all the asians, hispanics, women, etc Well the libertarian movement certainly does. http://redd.it/28wdvh http://redd.it/28wdvh
      - zo1 12y ago
        The beauty of Libertarianism is it doesn't matter. We are all equal in our fundamental rights as human beings, even if some choose to be ignorant. Currently, in the supposedly "democratic" and "free" world with a state government we have varieties of classes and hierarchies of people. Some have benefits, some are favored, others are despised and denied rights. I'll take my Libertarian supposed "ignorance" over Democracy's fake "equality of all" non-sense that is pretty much double-speak.
jMyles 12y ago
I was at this festival for six of the eight days (I arrived pre-dawn Tuesday morning). I'm also in one of the photos (I'm the base in the acro yoga pose). The tone and content of this article have nearly zero in common with the tone and content of this festival. What I saw was a warm, welcoming, well-read, sophisticated, diverse group of people focused on learning, doing, and playing. The tech talks were as good as a tech conference. The gardening and permaculture talks were as good as a WOOF seminar. The political talks were as diverse and compelling as a beltway nonprofit convention. And yet, all these things occurred in one week at one festival. Joel Salatin's keynote was particularly awesome. Patrick Byrne and Lyn Ulbricht were also very good. At my talk on mesh networking, which was supposed to be introductory, the crowd well overflowed the tent and was incredibly sophisticated, having already read up on IPv6, CA's, DNS, and a bunch of other tangentially related topics. There were hundreds of children playing all kinds of engaging, self-organized games throughout every day across the entire festival grounds, including the biggest and most passionate game of humans vs. zombies I've seen outside a university campus. :-) There were also classes and workshops for children all day every day. The kids weren't "wandering around the festival" as the article puts it, but in fact were an integral part of it. The level of debauchery and intoxication was far, far lower than a typical music festival. Yes, there was lots and lots of cannabis consumption. However, I didn't see a single person who was incapacitated (or even impaired) from drug use, including alcohol, which for a 2,000 person outdoor festival is unusual. This was a great festival and a very healthy experience for me. I highly suggest attendance.
chrisbennet 12y ago
“It’s great to be around people who understand. I don’t get how the left won’t just admit that income tax is theft. Who cares if it’s for a good cause?" Can someone give me an example of a government where Libertarian principles have been successfully implemented? It doesn't have to be perfect (nothing with humans ever is) but at least something that is non-imaginary would be helpful in making their case.
- zo1 12y ago
  Because the state has taken up ALL the arable land on the entire planet. There is no where for them to go. If you show me a place that is exempt from laws and people can willingly go to peacefully make their own state, then by all means, we'll show you a libertarian or anarcho-capitalist society. Let me just say this again, because it needs to be said over and over again. All the arable and usable land has been taken over and controlled by the state. All.
  - ufmace 12y ago
    This is kinda devils-advocate-y, but it's worth remembering that if the world is a certain way, there's probably a reason for it. The fact that pretty much all of the livable land is either controlled by relatively powerful states, or occupied by tribal people with beliefs entirely incompatible with libertarianism, tells us something about how the world works. If you want to form a country, or some entity with sovereignty over a decent-size plot of land, then you're going to need a military. That military will have to actually be loyal to the government/leadership and the population of that place. If you don't have that, then some other more established country will come take over, or at least have such strong influence that they are de facto in charge. That's why I don't think pure libertarianism is tenable - if you don't have some sort of powerful state, then some other powerful state will come take over your society. There's still plenty of room for debate on exactly what the role of that state is, and how the leadership is chosen and laws are made, but I don't think you can ever get around that. It's kinda like claiming that total pacifism is the best philosophy, but it never had a chance because all of these other big meanies keep squashing it. Like it or not, those big meanies are part of the world too, and if your philosophy can't handle them, then it's no good.
alex_doom 12y ago
Why is it compared to Burning Man? Music + Drugs + Kooky People? Oh ok that's burning man alright... Lazy journalism.
matt__rose 12y ago
You know, Burning Man used to have a drive-by shooting gallery. With guns, and cars, and is just as libertarian as this festival. The difference is, Burning Man encompasses much more than just libertarianism.

30 points by mjwhansen 12y ago

I have to say that, as an attendee, this is hyperbolic nonsense. PorcFest was one of the most cooperative, congenial, and positive environments that I have been a part of. It was also, remarkably, family friendly. This reporter decided not to represent the zeitgeist of the event in order to paint a cartoonish picture of people abandoning the puritanical and violently overbearing status quo.

dsr_ 12y ago

There appears to be a government of sorts, but because everyone is busy denying that there is a government, the decisions can't be appealed.

lotsofmangos 12y ago
It looks like a heavily armed repeat of some of the '60s hippie commune experiments.
Coffeewine 12y ago
Or, more primaly, you appeal the decisions by forming your own, larger, like minded group. It is very interesting to observe the natural tension between the strongly individualistic ethos and the fact that it's essentially impossible to accomplish anything socially without collective action.
leoedin 12y ago
In the absence of formal command structures it's human nature for informal ones to form. This is a theme that comes up time and time again when reading about organisations with very flat management structures (eg Valve and Corel). It turns out that while formal management structures can have accountability and systems to deal with unfair actions, informal ones can't. I know which one I'd prefer to work under.

Malarkey73 12y ago

“It’s great to be around people who understand. I don’t get how the left won’t just admit that income tax is theft. Who cares if it’s for a good cause?" Said the guy who drove to the festival on the trillion dollar road network.

sneak 12y ago
Tax is theft even if used to benefit the person it was stolen from, which was the point of the very next sentence.
jonnycowboy 12y ago
In this case he should be for a pay per use roadway (toll road).
- sillysaurus3 12y ago
  Police services, fire services, subsidizing families who can't afford food + gas + monthly bills, subsidizing students who can't afford school, the ability to help offset a recession (issue extra tax refunds)... The existing system has many advantages. What are some advantages of taxless governance?
  - obvious_throw 12y ago
    You are positing as axiomatic that subsidizing the indigent is an automatic good. Citation needed.
    - lhc- 12y ago
      I mean obviously, it would be better to just let them die in the street. Then there would be no more poor people, right?
      - MCRed 12y ago
        False dichotomy. When the government takes up to %50 of a poor person's income in taxes (both direct and indirect), the claim that not taking half their income would result in them dying in the street seems a bit silly.

msrpotus 12y ago

What is it about "libertarian" versions of things that they always involve guns (and generally drunk people)?

mcphage 12y ago
> and generally drunk people I think that's pretty much every event where you get a bunch of people together in the woods :-)
zo1 12y ago
You say that as if those things are bad? They're not necessarily bad.

jedanbik 12y ago

So it's like a music festival with lots of guns? Sounds dangerous. Count me out.

jMyles 12y ago
It is, without a doubt, the least dangerous-feeling festival I've ever attended. In fact, I have never felt so free from fear.

tomphoolery 12y ago

Ironically, at the Burning Man events prior to 1996, you could shoot guns. :)

metacorrector 12y ago
Ironically, Burning Man prior to 1996 didn't make me want to shoot guns; now if they allowed me to carry, I don't think I could carry enough.

Nursie 12y ago

I still don't really understand libertarianism. I'm not sure what it is that gives someone the moral right to reserve a section of the surface of the earth by force of arms in a system where all violence is considered morally wrong (and so many things can be apparently considered violence). If you can use violence to take away my access to land, I don't see how that differs from the rest of us taking some of your income.

jMyles 12y ago
Many libertarians, including some as this festival, don't regard land property as absolute, or in some cases, even just at all. For example, some believe that they have a right to build and defend a home, but not a right to prevent people from reasonably traversing the land, so long as they don't disturb anything. Come to the festival and ask these questions; you'll be surprised at the diversity and sophistication of the answers you'll get.
- mercer 12y ago
  That's a great recommendation, actually. I'm still shocked and embarrassed at how I once lumped all forms of libertarianism into the 'primitivist anarchism' pile, only to discover that a lot of thought and practice has gone into the various libertarian systems. I assumed, for the longest time, that they were all basically people who couldn't make life work or were lazy, and decided to rationalize this as a choice. The weed-smoking, squatting type who badly needs a shower and a haircut, and secretly relies on others for money and a safety-net (mind, all of these things don't necessarily go together!). Ironically, I spent much of my life as a Christian battling stereotypes that were based on American right-wing evangelical extremism. I should've known better. Experiencing some of these 'libertarian' environments and reading some of the literature painted a much more nuanced picture, and enriched my views tremendously, even if just because the views were so radically different from what I was familiar with. At some point in my life I decided that it would be good to spend significant effort to learn about views that are alien to me. Because even if they don't make a convincing argument in the end, they make me question whatever system I have in my head, and I feel that that's always a good thing.
12y ago

kevinkimball 12y ago

the article mentions that ~20 FSP people have been elected to the NH legislature at one point or another.However, it neglects to mention that the NH General Court has 424 members. Not much of an achievement in a state of 1.3m.

zo1 12y ago

"And this year, roughly 2,000 people - mostly white men - have paid between $45 and $100 to " You know, gotta keep pumping up that stereotype, hey: "Libertarians are nothing but a bunch of selfish rich white men."

lclarkmichalek 12y ago
If you did an article on bonobo or whatever music festival is popular with the kids these days, you'd probably mention the demographics attending. And if people think paying $45 is a lot to attend a festival, then... well let's hope they never try and attend a more mainstream event
whybroke 12y ago
Well let's look at a group photo: http://i.imgur.com/BTv37qB.jpg http://i.imgur.com/BTv37qB.jpg ahh yes, I think I see is a solitary black kid near the middle.
- MCRed 12y ago
  Sure, just ignore all the asians, hispanics, women, etc in that photo. You're arguing in support of a prejudice that says "only white males are libertarians therefore we don't have to listen to their arguments". It's anti-intellectual.
  - dublinben 12y ago
    >Sure, just ignore all the asians, hispanics, women, etc Well the libertarian movement certainly does. http://redd.it/28wdvh http://redd.it/28wdvh
    - zo1 12y ago
      The beauty of Libertarianism is it doesn't matter. We are all equal in our fundamental rights as human beings, even if some choose to be ignorant. Currently, in the supposedly "democratic" and "free" world with a state government we have varieties of classes and hierarchies of people. Some have benefits, some are favored, others are despised and denied rights. I'll take my Libertarian supposed "ignorance" over Democracy's fake "equality of all" non-sense that is pretty much double-speak.

jMyles 12y ago

I was at this festival for six of the eight days (I arrived pre-dawn Tuesday morning). I'm also in one of the photos (I'm the base in the acro yoga pose). The tone and content of this article have nearly zero in common with the tone and content of this festival. What I saw was a warm, welcoming, well-read, sophisticated, diverse group of people focused on learning, doing, and playing. The tech talks were as good as a tech conference. The gardening and permaculture talks were as good as a WOOF seminar. The political talks were as diverse and compelling as a beltway nonprofit convention. And yet, all these things occurred in one week at one festival. Joel Salatin's keynote was particularly awesome. Patrick Byrne and Lyn Ulbricht were also very good. At my talk on mesh networking, which was supposed to be introductory, the crowd well overflowed the tent and was incredibly sophisticated, having already read up on IPv6, CA's, DNS, and a bunch of other tangentially related topics. There were hundreds of children playing all kinds of engaging, self-organized games throughout every day across the entire festival grounds, including the biggest and most passionate game of humans vs. zombies I've seen outside a university campus. :-) There were also classes and workshops for children all day every day. The kids weren't "wandering around the festival" as the article puts it, but in fact were an integral part of it. The level of debauchery and intoxication was far, far lower than a typical music festival. Yes, there was lots and lots of cannabis consumption. However, I didn't see a single person who was incapacitated (or even impaired) from drug use, including alcohol, which for a 2,000 person outdoor festival is unusual. This was a great festival and a very healthy experience for me. I highly suggest attendance.

chrisbennet 12y ago

“It’s great to be around people who understand. I don’t get how the left won’t just admit that income tax is theft. Who cares if it’s for a good cause?" Can someone give me an example of a government where Libertarian principles have been successfully implemented? It doesn't have to be perfect (nothing with humans ever is) but at least something that is non-imaginary would be helpful in making their case.

zo1 12y ago
Because the state has taken up ALL the arable land on the entire planet. There is no where for them to go. If you show me a place that is exempt from laws and people can willingly go to peacefully make their own state, then by all means, we'll show you a libertarian or anarcho-capitalist society. Let me just say this again, because it needs to be said over and over again. All the arable and usable land has been taken over and controlled by the state. All.
- ufmace 12y ago
  This is kinda devils-advocate-y, but it's worth remembering that if the world is a certain way, there's probably a reason for it. The fact that pretty much all of the livable land is either controlled by relatively powerful states, or occupied by tribal people with beliefs entirely incompatible with libertarianism, tells us something about how the world works. If you want to form a country, or some entity with sovereignty over a decent-size plot of land, then you're going to need a military. That military will have to actually be loyal to the government/leadership and the population of that place. If you don't have that, then some other more established country will come take over, or at least have such strong influence that they are de facto in charge. That's why I don't think pure libertarianism is tenable - if you don't have some sort of powerful state, then some other powerful state will come take over your society. There's still plenty of room for debate on exactly what the role of that state is, and how the leadership is chosen and laws are made, but I don't think you can ever get around that. It's kinda like claiming that total pacifism is the best philosophy, but it never had a chance because all of these other big meanies keep squashing it. Like it or not, those big meanies are part of the world too, and if your philosophy can't handle them, then it's no good.

alex_doom 12y ago

Why is it compared to Burning Man? Music + Drugs + Kooky People? Oh ok that's burning man alright... Lazy journalism.

matt__rose 12y ago

You know, Burning Man used to have a drive-by shooting gallery. With guns, and cars, and is just as libertarian as this festival. The difference is, Burning Man encompasses much more than just libertarianism.