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That conversation goes something like: "Tell me why you are coming to the United States." "I refuse to answer, on the basis of the Constitution." "I find tha

by patio11 12y ago

That conversation goes something like: "Tell me why you are coming to the United States." "I refuse to answer, on the basis of the Constitution." "I find that you have no legitimate purpose to be in the United States. You are accordingly denied entry, and will be briefly detained while we arrange for you to be sent to the last country you were in." "I would like to speak with an attorney. You have to do that when you arrest people." "You are not under arrest. This is not a criminal matter." "My lawyer will disagree." "He is welcome to take it up with the Supreme Court. It didn't work out that well the last three times. 'The power of the state is at it's zenith at the border.' I love that word zenith. Zenith, zenith, zenith. That implies your legal privileges are at their nadir, by the way." "I will call him immediately. I get a call, right?" "That's a convention in US movies, for some reason, but it has never been a legal requirement. Funny thing, movies."

JoeAltmaier 12y ago
All too true. Even though our founding documents say 'all men' have 'inalienable rights', somehow they don't apply to our neighbors. Because they are not men, or not deserving of rights. Always seemed hypocritical to me.
- sliverstorm 12y ago
  That's a bit of a tangled mess, there. For starters, the unalienable rights are "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness". Not the right to a lawyer.
  - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
    "Among them are ". Due process is part of it too. The bill of rights should figure in there somewhere as well.
- tptacek 12y ago
  The Declaration of Independence isn't a binding legal document.
  - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
    "American Consitutionalism rests on four pillars: the Declaration of Independence; the Articles of Confederation; the Northwest Ordinance of 1787; and the Constitution. These fundamental documents, which have the collective title "The Organic Laws of the United States of America", are the first section of THE UNITED STATES CODE, the official text of the statute laws of the federal government."
    - tptacek 12y ago
      And? The Declaration of Independence is not a binding legal document. It's legal significance is exclusively as an input to the Constitution. (Well, that and severing us from England). You probably ought to make the provenance of that quote known, too: http://candst.tripod.com/doinotlaw.htm http://candst.tripod.com/doinotlaw.htm Or, just read more of his site; the most recent SCOTUS decision he cites on it includes the text: "The Declaration of Independence, however, is not a legal prescription conferring powers upon the courts" I have to ask... if you believe that the Declaration is a binding legal document, do you also believe, as the Declaration asserts, that all our rights come from God?
      - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
        So, the statement of our founding principles are just verbal chaff to be ignored? Hypocrisy isn't a legal state; its a moral one.
enraged_camel 12y ago
According to the Supreme Court, the acceptable timeframe for a detention is around 20 minutes. http://criminal-law.freeadvice.com/criminal-law/arrests_and_searches/arrest-detention.htm http://criminal-law.freeadvice.com/criminal-law/arrests_and_... >>In a detention, the police only need reasonable suspicion to stop an individual, and a reasonable person would feel as though they could leave in a short amount of time. This timeframe can vary a bit based on the circumstances, but the U.S. Supreme Court has held that 20 minutes or so is a reasonable timeframe for detaining someone. In other words, if you're being forced to wait in some office for hours (as is usually the case in these types of matters), the Supreme Court would say that it no longer counts as detention at that point. But would it count as an arrest? Further down in that article, it says: >>An arrest is characterized by the idea that a reasonable person would not feel free to leave due to the actions of the law enforcement officers. This usually means that the officers take the individual into custody. Custody can mean a number of things. An individual may be taken into custody by driving them back to the police station. However, courts have also held custody to mean any situation in which an individual reasonably believes that they will not be able to leave within a short period of time. Aha. So being forced to wait in an office while they arrange for your return flight home is indeed an arrest. Of course, like you point out, these are not the types of situations in which one can challenge the authority of the state officials. Still though, I do want them to detain the wrong person one of these days and get their asses pwned in a lawsuit.
- schoen 12y ago
  But see, for example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception
- bequanna 12y ago
  >Aha. So being forced to wait in an office while they arrange for your return flight home is indeed an arrest. Not so sure about that. Are they detaining you, or simply not allowing you to enter the US? Let's say you walk up to my front door, and I won't let you into my house. Would I be 'arresting' you on my front step by not granting you entry into my home?

by patio11 12y ago

JoeAltmaier 12y ago

All too true. Even though our founding documents say 'all men' have 'inalienable rights', somehow they don't apply to our neighbors. Because they are not men, or not deserving of rights. Always seemed hypocritical to me.

sliverstorm 12y ago
That's a bit of a tangled mess, there. For starters, the unalienable rights are "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness". Not the right to a lawyer.
- JoeAltmaier 12y ago
  "Among them are ". Due process is part of it too. The bill of rights should figure in there somewhere as well.
tptacek 12y ago
The Declaration of Independence isn't a binding legal document.
- JoeAltmaier 12y ago
  "American Consitutionalism rests on four pillars: the Declaration of Independence; the Articles of Confederation; the Northwest Ordinance of 1787; and the Constitution. These fundamental documents, which have the collective title "The Organic Laws of the United States of America", are the first section of THE UNITED STATES CODE, the official text of the statute laws of the federal government."
  - tptacek 12y ago
    And? The Declaration of Independence is not a binding legal document. It's legal significance is exclusively as an input to the Constitution. (Well, that and severing us from England). You probably ought to make the provenance of that quote known, too: http://candst.tripod.com/doinotlaw.htm http://candst.tripod.com/doinotlaw.htm Or, just read more of his site; the most recent SCOTUS decision he cites on it includes the text: "The Declaration of Independence, however, is not a legal prescription conferring powers upon the courts" I have to ask... if you believe that the Declaration is a binding legal document, do you also believe, as the Declaration asserts, that all our rights come from God?
    - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
      So, the statement of our founding principles are just verbal chaff to be ignored? Hypocrisy isn't a legal state; its a moral one.

enraged_camel 12y ago

According to the Supreme Court, the acceptable timeframe for a detention is around 20 minutes. http://criminal-law.freeadvice.com/criminal-law/arrests_and_searches/arrest-detention.htm http://criminal-law.freeadvice.com/criminal-law/arrests_and_... >>In a detention, the police only need reasonable suspicion to stop an individual, and a reasonable person would feel as though they could leave in a short amount of time. This timeframe can vary a bit based on the circumstances, but the U.S. Supreme Court has held that 20 minutes or so is a reasonable timeframe for detaining someone. In other words, if you're being forced to wait in some office for hours (as is usually the case in these types of matters), the Supreme Court would say that it no longer counts as detention at that point. But would it count as an arrest? Further down in that article, it says: >>An arrest is characterized by the idea that a reasonable person would not feel free to leave due to the actions of the law enforcement officers. This usually means that the officers take the individual into custody. Custody can mean a number of things. An individual may be taken into custody by driving them back to the police station. However, courts have also held custody to mean any situation in which an individual reasonably believes that they will not be able to leave within a short period of time. Aha. So being forced to wait in an office while they arrange for your return flight home is indeed an arrest. Of course, like you point out, these are not the types of situations in which one can challenge the authority of the state officials. Still though, I do want them to detain the wrong person one of these days and get their asses pwned in a lawsuit.

schoen 12y ago
But see, for example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception
bequanna 12y ago
>Aha. So being forced to wait in an office while they arrange for your return flight home is indeed an arrest. Not so sure about that. Are they detaining you, or simply not allowing you to enter the US? Let's say you walk up to my front door, and I won't let you into my house. Would I be 'arresting' you on my front step by not granting you entry into my home?