3 ms·

Reading this post was very uncomfortable, especially the follow-ups describing women as having "no intellectual curiosity", but also the general tone. I was als

by Eyas 12y ago

Reading this post was very uncomfortable, especially the follow-ups describing women as having "no intellectual curiosity", but also the general tone. I was also perplexed at how many others described this as an ideal life -- perhaps they were just referring to the raw facts (lots of fun, dating, throwing good parties, etc.) and not actually adopting many of the implicit attitudes in there. Still, I couldn't help but read this post in the voice of a ~19 year old college "douche"[1] type, which felt very weird coming out of a 41 year old. Perhaps the real lesson in here for young HNers is to live their lives fully, to grow, mature, and develop our emotional maturity, so that we don't sound like that at the respectable age of 41. -- [1] - couldn't find a better word; is there an alternative with less negative connotations, but carrying the same denotation?

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
guynamedloren 12y ago
I felt very much the same way reading this. I typically associate these actions (namely glorified partying and objectifying women) with severe lack of confidence, self awareness and, and individuality. These are not qualities I would expect from an emotionally mature 41 year old that is retired and happy. It sounds like iretired missed something early on (while 'busting his ass' presumably), and is trying to play catch-up.
- dennisgorelik 12y ago
  Party life does not appeal to me at all, but I respect such choice. iretired worked hard, cashed out and now has his fun. I think he would get bored of that party life in another year or so, marry one of his girlfriends and move back to Silicon Valley for another venture. Edit: I take it back. I missed couple of other iretired comments. Now he seems to be totally fake: much younger than 41, never been successful manager and never actually cashed out. Dang is right: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7978950 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7978950
lscharen 12y ago
> [1] - couldn't find a better word; is there an alternative with less negative connotations, but carrying the same denotation? Maybe a "~19 year old college "bro" type" would be closer to the mark, given that the "brogrammer" label has been around for a while.
- aragot 12y ago
  I think the "bro" word is incredibly sexist towards men and negative. It's a cliché we're trying to accuse people of, and it doesn't cover the diversity of programmer styles and the desperation many of us are into about our sector not having enough women. We don't get stronger by repeating those humiliating words. I believe, if we want to reach peace, we must drop this word "brogrammer" and the idea of tagging people with a bad attitude, altogether.
  - ajlburke 12y ago
    Labels are troublesome, but the specific use here seems appropriate: it's a man who is in a technical field and who people see as having an immature attitude towards women and perhaps even life in general. Sure, "not all men" and all that - but, well, yes this man.
    - aragot 12y ago
      You're litterally right. Your comment however does not take into account the I however do not find that categorizing people under condescending labels - Blah, no way to get heard.
Plasmatic 12y ago
The post has a bizarre vibe doesn't it. The facts he chose to include. He'll date 28 year old... but never older. Of course not. He knows all the bouncers of the hottest clubs. It's how he impressed his 20 year old girlfriend! But he has more girls 'on the side'. Gee I wonder why he never has good conversations with any women given the types that must gravitate towards him.
mr_luc 12y ago
I'd like to thank the gp for his comment and his honesty; I think his participation adds a lot to this discussion. That said, I felt just as uneasy as you. Here's my experience from the Funemployment thread, if anyone's interested -- not FU money, but a life that feels just as free: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7932707 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7932707 (I thought about commenting on this thread, but I already commented on the 'Funemployment' thread). I think that "emotional immaturity" is a cop-out, though, one that I've seen a lot. What's mature? I've seen, known and met dozens (hundreds?) of expats, and I fear that the real reasons might be a bit more grim: I don't think people really know what they would run away to do. It's easy to funnel people towards technology and startups if they want to get rich. It's 'easy' in the sense that, whatever the reasons you might want to get rich, technology can probably help. But on the opposite end? Where do people go once they've achieved functional independence (through retirement or other means) and can basically take work or leave it? Well ... that's pretty personal. It fans out, sometimes to really weird and specific places. In this case, the gp has found one really good friend, who 'gets' him. The two of them have a bromance going, and they have a hobby they enjoy ('debauchery'), and they treat other people (including some women) as essentially disposable. That makes me uneasy, but what about it specifically would you call "immaturity?" It seems that you might mean that it's empirically immature, in that it sounds like the dream and the description (and, hey, this being the internet, it might well be a fantasy) of young people without much life experience.
- Eyas 12y ago
  I don't think that having fun, drinking, knowing the bouncers, going to clubs, and having many relations (often overlapping) with much younger women is a sign of immaturity per se. The reason I use the "emotional immaturity" label to describe the post has more to do with the way its written. Gloating in certain details and expressing certain opinions that, in my view, are reflective of a person whose life experience is (in some ways) uninformed and lacking. Again, the women comment I think indicates that he simply hasn't talked to an accurate sample of women (or hasn't tried to have serious conversations). That's a serious lack of experience (if you presuppose as I do that intellectual women exist in roughly the same proportion as men). I personally define maturity/immaturity as something related to these kinds of experiences. It goes without saying that I am not referring to any objective conception of maturity, but rather my own assessment of what it means.
wpietri 12y ago
Yeah. When I focus on just him, I feel sad for him. He took something he loved doing, software, and ruined it for himself. For half the human race, the half that he wants to be intimate with, he doesn't even know how to interact with them in a way that isn't exploitative. He's now reluctantly spending his cash hoard to buy cheap status from bar staff. It's kinda heartbreaking. And then I think about the women he's exploiting, the one whose early, formative relationships are with somebody with no respect for them. How many of them will spend the rest of their lives thinking that men are exploitative assholes? That if they're going to make it in this world, they have to be as awful as him? It's hideous. I hope he gets over it. For their sake, and his.

by Eyas 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

guynamedloren 12y ago

I felt very much the same way reading this. I typically associate these actions (namely glorified partying and objectifying women) with severe lack of confidence, self awareness and, and individuality. These are not qualities I would expect from an emotionally mature 41 year old that is retired and happy. It sounds like iretired missed something early on (while 'busting his ass' presumably), and is trying to play catch-up.

dennisgorelik 12y ago
Party life does not appeal to me at all, but I respect such choice. iretired worked hard, cashed out and now has his fun. I think he would get bored of that party life in another year or so, marry one of his girlfriends and move back to Silicon Valley for another venture. Edit: I take it back. I missed couple of other iretired comments. Now he seems to be totally fake: much younger than 41, never been successful manager and never actually cashed out. Dang is right: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7978950 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7978950

lscharen 12y ago

> [1] - couldn't find a better word; is there an alternative with less negative connotations, but carrying the same denotation? Maybe a "~19 year old college "bro" type" would be closer to the mark, given that the "brogrammer" label has been around for a while.

aragot 12y ago
I think the "bro" word is incredibly sexist towards men and negative. It's a cliché we're trying to accuse people of, and it doesn't cover the diversity of programmer styles and the desperation many of us are into about our sector not having enough women. We don't get stronger by repeating those humiliating words. I believe, if we want to reach peace, we must drop this word "brogrammer" and the idea of tagging people with a bad attitude, altogether.
- ajlburke 12y ago
  Labels are troublesome, but the specific use here seems appropriate: it's a man who is in a technical field and who people see as having an immature attitude towards women and perhaps even life in general. Sure, "not all men" and all that - but, well, yes this man.
  - aragot 12y ago
    You're litterally right. Your comment however does not take into account the I however do not find that categorizing people under condescending labels - Blah, no way to get heard.

Plasmatic 12y ago

The post has a bizarre vibe doesn't it. The facts he chose to include. He'll date 28 year old... but never older. Of course not. He knows all the bouncers of the hottest clubs. It's how he impressed his 20 year old girlfriend! But he has more girls 'on the side'. Gee I wonder why he never has good conversations with any women given the types that must gravitate towards him.

mr_luc 12y ago

I'd like to thank the gp for his comment and his honesty; I think his participation adds a lot to this discussion. That said, I felt just as uneasy as you. Here's my experience from the Funemployment thread, if anyone's interested -- not FU money, but a life that feels just as free: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7932707 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7932707 (I thought about commenting on this thread, but I already commented on the 'Funemployment' thread). I think that "emotional immaturity" is a cop-out, though, one that I've seen a lot. What's mature? I've seen, known and met dozens (hundreds?) of expats, and I fear that the real reasons might be a bit more grim: I don't think people really know what they would run away to do. It's easy to funnel people towards technology and startups if they want to get rich. It's 'easy' in the sense that, whatever the reasons you might want to get rich, technology can probably help. But on the opposite end? Where do people go once they've achieved functional independence (through retirement or other means) and can basically take work or leave it? Well ... that's pretty personal. It fans out, sometimes to really weird and specific places. In this case, the gp has found one really good friend, who 'gets' him. The two of them have a bromance going, and they have a hobby they enjoy ('debauchery'), and they treat other people (including some women) as essentially disposable. That makes me uneasy, but what about it specifically would you call "immaturity?" It seems that you might mean that it's empirically immature, in that it sounds like the dream and the description (and, hey, this being the internet, it might well be a fantasy) of young people without much life experience.

Eyas 12y ago
I don't think that having fun, drinking, knowing the bouncers, going to clubs, and having many relations (often overlapping) with much younger women is a sign of immaturity per se. The reason I use the "emotional immaturity" label to describe the post has more to do with the way its written. Gloating in certain details and expressing certain opinions that, in my view, are reflective of a person whose life experience is (in some ways) uninformed and lacking. Again, the women comment I think indicates that he simply hasn't talked to an accurate sample of women (or hasn't tried to have serious conversations). That's a serious lack of experience (if you presuppose as I do that intellectual women exist in roughly the same proportion as men). I personally define maturity/immaturity as something related to these kinds of experiences. It goes without saying that I am not referring to any objective conception of maturity, but rather my own assessment of what it means.

wpietri 12y ago

Yeah. When I focus on just him, I feel sad for him. He took something he loved doing, software, and ruined it for himself. For half the human race, the half that he wants to be intimate with, he doesn't even know how to interact with them in a way that isn't exploitative. He's now reluctantly spending his cash hoard to buy cheap status from bar staff. It's kinda heartbreaking. And then I think about the women he's exploiting, the one whose early, formative relationships are with somebody with no respect for them. How many of them will spend the rest of their lives thinking that men are exploitative assholes? That if they're going to make it in this world, they have to be as awful as him? It's hideous. I hope he gets over it. For their sake, and his.