6 ms·

While I disagree with them, there are a multitude of laws in most countries that make operating a TOR exit node a very bad idea. The concept of criminal respon

While I disagree with them, there are a multitude of laws in most countries that make operating a TOR exit node a very bad idea. The concept of criminal responsibility for enabling the illegal acts of others, even when you don't know specifically what others are going to do with the tools you provide, is well established in the US and other countries. Perfect example: Ryan Holle of Florida is serving life without parole for allowing his friends to borrow his car at a party when he was 18 years old. He went to sleep; his friends took the car and committed a robbery during which someone was killed. The prosecutor's argument to the jury during the 1 day trial? "No car, no murder".

cookiecaper 12y ago
This is why the concept of jury nullification is important. Yes, it's good to have laws that punish accessories, but that kind of thing is obviously not the intended case. No rational person would accept that outcome under normal circumstances, but jurors are essentially bullied by the legal establishment, which holds them in fairly clear disdain, and told they must deliver a ruling based on certain rules without consideration to the larger import of the situation or face contempt of court. I suppose the abuse is even worse in jurisdictions and/or cases where jurors do not have a say in sentencing.
- hga 12y ago
  After some checking with Google I don't get the impression this case was "serious" enough to have a jury involved. E.g. from the statement of the convicted it's implied the maximum jail term would have been 3 months. Those of us in common law based legal regimes count ourselves lucky to have that check in all but the most trifling of cases.
- drzaiusapelord 12y ago
  Holle knew they were going to use his car in a robbery. I imagine most juries would still punish even if they knew of nullification. The parent poster mislead you into thinking Holle was ignorant of what the car was used for. I'd convict him considering the circumstances. He is an accomplice.
danielweber 12y ago
There is something big missing from that summary of Holle: he knew his friends were going to commit a burglary.[1] Without that connection that puts him on the hook for a felony, he wouldn't be facing life for felony murder.[2] [1] He disputes his point, which is fair enough, but the court has found otherwise. [2] Someone could point out the three-felonies-a-day thing here. EDIT for footnote 2 Flordia's felony murder law[3] spells out the very specific felonies in which you face felony murder charges. These aren't in the same category as accidentally picking up a lobster trap. [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule_(Florida) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule_(Florida)
- downandout 12y ago
  Whether he knew or not (he says he didn't believe that they were going to do it), the comparison to TOR-related cases is still appropriate. If one of these cases went to trial in the US, you would hear the prosecutor telling the jury about TOR's seedy reputation, and that because of that reputation, any reasonable person would have known that illegal activity was likely to occur. Under federal and most state laws, that's enough to make someone culpable.
  - danielweber 12y ago
    Legally, "you should have known something fishy was going to occur" is a very different beast from "you knowingly participated in a felony conspiracy, and a co-conspirator committed murder that depended on your material aid." Home invasions have a tendency to end up with someone dead. Don't help your friends commit them by giving them guns or the vehicles to get there. (Also, don't be the getaway driver for a bank robbery.) Without the court finding that Holle knew his friends were going to commit burglary, the prosecutor could wave his arms all he wanted about how he should have known his friends were scumbags and he should not have lent them even his watch, but the actual legal requirements for felony murder would have fallen apart.
    - downandout 12y ago
      Home invasions have a tendency to end up with someone dead. Don't help your friends commit them by giving them guns or the vehicles to get there. (Also, don't be the getaway driver for a bank robbery.) And, I suspect a jury would add to that...Don't offer up your internet connection with the specific intent to aid in shielding the identities of child pornographers, spammers, and all manner of thieves.
maxlybbert 12y ago
This is the basic weakness of Tor: while nobody can listen in on your communications, they can determine you're using Tor and communicating covertly. In some jurisdictions that's enough to put you in jail or to question you with the help of very nasty tools.
lutorm 12y ago
So by the same argument, if someone takes the bus to commit a crime, the bus operator is responsible?

cookiecaper 12y ago

This is why the concept of jury nullification is important. Yes, it's good to have laws that punish accessories, but that kind of thing is obviously not the intended case. No rational person would accept that outcome under normal circumstances, but jurors are essentially bullied by the legal establishment, which holds them in fairly clear disdain, and told they must deliver a ruling based on certain rules without consideration to the larger import of the situation or face contempt of court. I suppose the abuse is even worse in jurisdictions and/or cases where jurors do not have a say in sentencing.

hga 12y ago
After some checking with Google I don't get the impression this case was "serious" enough to have a jury involved. E.g. from the statement of the convicted it's implied the maximum jail term would have been 3 months. Those of us in common law based legal regimes count ourselves lucky to have that check in all but the most trifling of cases.
drzaiusapelord 12y ago
Holle knew they were going to use his car in a robbery. I imagine most juries would still punish even if they knew of nullification. The parent poster mislead you into thinking Holle was ignorant of what the car was used for. I'd convict him considering the circumstances. He is an accomplice.

danielweber 12y ago

There is something big missing from that summary of Holle: he knew his friends were going to commit a burglary.[1] Without that connection that puts him on the hook for a felony, he wouldn't be facing life for felony murder.[2] [1] He disputes his point, which is fair enough, but the court has found otherwise. [2] Someone could point out the three-felonies-a-day thing here. EDIT for footnote 2 Flordia's felony murder law[3] spells out the very specific felonies in which you face felony murder charges. These aren't in the same category as accidentally picking up a lobster trap. [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule_(Florida) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule_(Florida)

downandout 12y ago
Whether he knew or not (he says he didn't believe that they were going to do it), the comparison to TOR-related cases is still appropriate. If one of these cases went to trial in the US, you would hear the prosecutor telling the jury about TOR's seedy reputation, and that because of that reputation, any reasonable person would have known that illegal activity was likely to occur. Under federal and most state laws, that's enough to make someone culpable.
- danielweber 12y ago
  Legally, "you should have known something fishy was going to occur" is a very different beast from "you knowingly participated in a felony conspiracy, and a co-conspirator committed murder that depended on your material aid." Home invasions have a tendency to end up with someone dead. Don't help your friends commit them by giving them guns or the vehicles to get there. (Also, don't be the getaway driver for a bank robbery.) Without the court finding that Holle knew his friends were going to commit burglary, the prosecutor could wave his arms all he wanted about how he should have known his friends were scumbags and he should not have lent them even his watch, but the actual legal requirements for felony murder would have fallen apart.
  - downandout 12y ago
    Home invasions have a tendency to end up with someone dead. Don't help your friends commit them by giving them guns or the vehicles to get there. (Also, don't be the getaway driver for a bank robbery.) And, I suspect a jury would add to that...Don't offer up your internet connection with the specific intent to aid in shielding the identities of child pornographers, spammers, and all manner of thieves.

maxlybbert 12y ago

This is the basic weakness of Tor: while nobody can listen in on your communications, they can determine you're using Tor and communicating covertly. In some jurisdictions that's enough to put you in jail or to question you with the help of very nasty tools.

lutorm 12y ago

So by the same argument, if someone takes the bus to commit a crime, the bus operator is responsible?