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It's simple: A car needs a source of energy. Then a 15 gallon tank of gasoline is just super tough to beat. Can beat it a little with a 15 gallon tank of Die

by graycat 12y ago

It's simple: A car needs a source of energy. Then a 15 gallon tank of gasoline is just super tough to beat. Can beat it a little with a 15 gallon tank of Diesel oil. A few hundred pounds of batteries with a charge from the electric grid? You gotta be kidding. Now, what to do with that liquid in that 15 gallon tank is a question, but the basic fact remains. Did I mention that that fact is simple? A car needs energy, and that 15 gallon tank is tough to beat. For the rest, we have a lot of possibilities, but that 15 gallon tank is tough to beat.

graycat 12y ago
Gee, some people need some help: Did I mention, a 15 gallon tank is tough to beat? Electric power, that is, without a tank of gasoline or Diesel, for the energy for a car, is tough, super tough, for now and a long time, too tough to store. It's tough. Storing electric energy is tough, too tough for a car and likely also for wind and solar to feed the grid. Yes, there are ways to store the energy from wind and solar for the grid, but those ways are too expensive, by a factor of about 2, over other means of electric power generation that do not need storage, even if the power from wind and solar are just free, as in totally free, as in $0.00 per megawatt year. So, let's look at an example, say, Tesla. I just went to their Web site and looked at charging time and saw > During the work week I charge only at work during an 8hr shift from a 110 outlet. I only live 6 miles from work. I usually get ~30 miles of charge in 8 hours So, right, 8 hours of charging for 30 miles of driving. Lots of cars can go 30 miles on one gallon of gasoline that takes about, what, 20 seconds, to pump. Diesel, maybe 45 miles. The car, sure, it can still drive the wheels with electric motors, but, to make any sense, we store little or no electric energy in the car. Instead, the energy for the car is stored in a 15 gallon tank of gasoline or Diesel. We had electric cars going way back to the beginning of cars. Why? Because lead acid batteries and electric motors were already old things. And, a battery much better than lead acid is still tough to get; indeed, we still use lead acid batteries in cars for, say, the starting motor. The main problem with electric cars remains the batteries. As a Ford executive said long ago, build me a good battery and I will build you a good electric car. We are still waiting for a good battery, say, comparable with a 15 gallon tank of gasoline, in range, capital expense, operating expense, durability, and 'recharging' time. So far, a Tesla is a toy for rich people. Sorry 'bout that. I could like an electric car; it would have a lot of advantages. The problem is the battery. And that's been the problem for about 100 years.
- maxerickson 12y ago
  Nothing in the grandparent comment invites your first rant. Except maybe I do happen to think that the Volt is the best compromise between price, range on batteries, and ability to drive long distances., but that doesn't exhibit any of the confusion about batteries vs fuel that you seemed to think you were responding to. I imagine the people clicking the down facing triangle were responding to your unnecessary and out of place tone, not out of Tesla exuberance.
  - graycat 12y ago
    The free piston engine that is essentially a linear electric power generator in the OP is interesting and maybe promising for practice. And such a car with a battery for capturing energy from braking, operating accessories without the engine, and some extra power for a few seconds could be fine. Fine. I like it. Good OP. You wrote: > Nothing in the grandparent comment invites your first rant. Wrong. From the OP I was responding to: > Electrically driven cars are the future. But until we have cheap, 1000-mile batteries, we still need range-extending fossil-fuel engines. This quote is the "rant" -- the writer hates "fossil-fuel engines" and is dreaming of "1000 mile batteries" presumably to be charged from the electric grid. Wacko nonsense. Smoking funny stuff nonsense. Uh, just where would the energy to charge a "1000 mile battery" come from? Sure, now, heavily from the electric grid from fossil fuels. Wind, solar? Nope, not for the grid because those sources will need to store electric energy, and that's too darned expensive. Some people just HATE a 15 gallon tank of gasoline or Diesel and just dream of "1000 mile batteries" and threaten to increase my costs of car travel and seriously weaken the US, and I don't like attacks on either me or the US. This wacko, 'green worship' with humans and carbon as 'evil', etc. is going too darned far. I don't care about people worshiping the moon, but this wacko stuff is trying to hurt my car transportation, and I don't like it.
    - maxerickson 12y ago
      Reconcile your impression with what they say here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7977031 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7977031 They also don't actually say the words you have put in quotation marks, or anything especially dreamy about electric cars. Maybe they said it somewhere else? (I suppose 'less carbon' could be characterized as dreamy, but electric miles are often cheaper to operate, so I guess I don't like that characterization) Anyway, I don't mind if you agree with me about whether the comment invites your response or not, I just wanted you to consider that maybe the people who inspired your second rant did understand your comment and downvoted for other reasons.

by graycat 12y ago

graycat 12y ago

Gee, some people need some help: Did I mention, a 15 gallon tank is tough to beat? Electric power, that is, without a tank of gasoline or Diesel, for the energy for a car, is tough, super tough, for now and a long time, too tough to store. It's tough. Storing electric energy is tough, too tough for a car and likely also for wind and solar to feed the grid. Yes, there are ways to store the energy from wind and solar for the grid, but those ways are too expensive, by a factor of about 2, over other means of electric power generation that do not need storage, even if the power from wind and solar are just free, as in totally free, as in $0.00 per megawatt year. So, let's look at an example, say, Tesla. I just went to their Web site and looked at charging time and saw > During the work week I charge only at work during an 8hr shift from a 110 outlet. I only live 6 miles from work. I usually get ~30 miles of charge in 8 hours So, right, 8 hours of charging for 30 miles of driving. Lots of cars can go 30 miles on one gallon of gasoline that takes about, what, 20 seconds, to pump. Diesel, maybe 45 miles. The car, sure, it can still drive the wheels with electric motors, but, to make any sense, we store little or no electric energy in the car. Instead, the energy for the car is stored in a 15 gallon tank of gasoline or Diesel. We had electric cars going way back to the beginning of cars. Why? Because lead acid batteries and electric motors were already old things. And, a battery much better than lead acid is still tough to get; indeed, we still use lead acid batteries in cars for, say, the starting motor. The main problem with electric cars remains the batteries. As a Ford executive said long ago, build me a good battery and I will build you a good electric car. We are still waiting for a good battery, say, comparable with a 15 gallon tank of gasoline, in range, capital expense, operating expense, durability, and 'recharging' time. So far, a Tesla is a toy for rich people. Sorry 'bout that. I could like an electric car; it would have a lot of advantages. The problem is the battery. And that's been the problem for about 100 years.

maxerickson 12y ago
Nothing in the grandparent comment invites your first rant. Except maybe I do happen to think that the Volt is the best compromise between price, range on batteries, and ability to drive long distances., but that doesn't exhibit any of the confusion about batteries vs fuel that you seemed to think you were responding to. I imagine the people clicking the down facing triangle were responding to your unnecessary and out of place tone, not out of Tesla exuberance.
- graycat 12y ago
  The free piston engine that is essentially a linear electric power generator in the OP is interesting and maybe promising for practice. And such a car with a battery for capturing energy from braking, operating accessories without the engine, and some extra power for a few seconds could be fine. Fine. I like it. Good OP. You wrote: > Nothing in the grandparent comment invites your first rant. Wrong. From the OP I was responding to: > Electrically driven cars are the future. But until we have cheap, 1000-mile batteries, we still need range-extending fossil-fuel engines. This quote is the "rant" -- the writer hates "fossil-fuel engines" and is dreaming of "1000 mile batteries" presumably to be charged from the electric grid. Wacko nonsense. Smoking funny stuff nonsense. Uh, just where would the energy to charge a "1000 mile battery" come from? Sure, now, heavily from the electric grid from fossil fuels. Wind, solar? Nope, not for the grid because those sources will need to store electric energy, and that's too darned expensive. Some people just HATE a 15 gallon tank of gasoline or Diesel and just dream of "1000 mile batteries" and threaten to increase my costs of car travel and seriously weaken the US, and I don't like attacks on either me or the US. This wacko, 'green worship' with humans and carbon as 'evil', etc. is going too darned far. I don't care about people worshiping the moon, but this wacko stuff is trying to hurt my car transportation, and I don't like it.
  - maxerickson 12y ago
    Reconcile your impression with what they say here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7977031 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7977031 They also don't actually say the words you have put in quotation marks, or anything especially dreamy about electric cars. Maybe they said it somewhere else? (I suppose 'less carbon' could be characterized as dreamy, but electric miles are often cheaper to operate, so I guess I don't like that characterization) Anyway, I don't mind if you agree with me about whether the comment invites your response or not, I just wanted you to consider that maybe the people who inspired your second rant did understand your comment and downvoted for other reasons.