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balkanisation of the Internet is a natural result of the erosion of trust in corporations and other stewards of this medium Not even close. This is another reg

balkanisation of the Internet is a natural result of the erosion of trust in corporations and other stewards of this medium Not even close. This is another regime looking to suppress dissent, just like China has been doing all along. They don't trust their own citizens, not "corporations and other stewards of this medium." You're buying a flimsy excuse for cracking down on free speech. Their problem has never been that some company cooperates with the US. It has always been that multinationals couldn't be easily strong-armed into cooperating with the local authorities. And no, it wouldn't matter if the US had the same problems.

hopeless 12y ago
I could easily see the EU strengthening our data protection laws in the next few years to take us in this direction. In light of the NSA scandals there's probably a strong justification for this… except that the UK is a bigger danger to privacy and it operates within the EU.
- Amezarak 12y ago
  Nearly every EU country is documented to have similar programs, not just the UK. Some are even much more aggressive about industrial espionage - for example, France. When European politicians make noise about using European-based services, it isn't so they can be sure your privacy is protected, it's so EU-based organizations can access those servers without having to negotiate with the NSA. As a side benefit, they can claim it's good for the local economy. The NSA revelations are just a pretext. Every European country knew exactly what was going on; they were complicit in it and they had varying levels of sharing agreements with the NSA.
  - mercurial 12y ago
    It's not as clear-cut. The motivation of pro-privacy MEPs from the left-wing EU parties are most likely entirely different from the ones of the Council of Europe. But your point about most EU intelligence services being engaged in spying on EU citizens stands, unfortunately.
  - hopeless 12y ago
    Whilst most of the larger EU countries have some civil spying program, the UK operates on a much wider scale throughout the world. It is also particularly concerning for me in Ireland as a large portion of Irish internet traffic must flow through the UK, and there are specific monitoring stations setup to intercept this fibre.
insuffi 12y ago
It's certainly not that Putin needs to suppress dissent from his own people. It's a very small minority in Russia that would like Putin removed. Now, if we're talking about the west investing x billion in "democratic institutions"(Ukraine, anyone?), it makes some sense for Russia to isolate itself. Obviously, it's easy to paint Russia as evil, but the cold war is over, buddy.
- vdaniuk 12y ago
  That's hilarious. People in Russia support Putin exactly because there are virtually no free mass media. This is one of the latest steps to block access to all media channels that may oppose Russian cleptocratic government.
  - insuffi 12y ago
    Heh, Right. Is there free mass media anywhere else? Are you aware that any journalist who spoke out against the Iraq war never had a career again? Free mass media is a political talking point, not a real thing. Would you prefer Yeltsin? Putin is what Russia needs.
    - vdaniuk 12y ago
      Ah, yes, what about the USA. The favorite argument of putinbots. Because there are no other countries in the world, right?
      - insuffi 12y ago
        Oh wow, a putinbot. Great argumentation.
        vdaniuk 12y ago
        Yes, based on your argumentation, your anonymous profile and your posting history, there is a big chance that you are paid to post here. Don't really care about your opinion, but other HN readers should know about the situation with Russian propaganda on social media: http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterhimler/2014/05/06/russias-media-trolls/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterhimler/2014/05/06/russias-m...
jqm 12y ago
Both mistrust of foreign companies and desire to suppress dissent could be reasons this law is being enacted. It doesn't have to be one or the other. And, there could even be a third element. Economic protectionism and "keep the money here". Or even a forth element. The lawmakers cousin owns a data center in Moscow:)
- vdaniuk 12y ago
  "Keep the money here"? That's for filthy peasants, noblemen of Russian bureaucracy hold their savings overseas.
  - bilbo0s 12y ago
    They may STORE the money overseas... But they have to get the money from somewhere don't they? That somewhere is generally "fixed" Russian markets.
    - vdaniuk 12y ago
      Sure, I don't disagree with that. It is absolutely surreal how much funds were embezzled through the Olympics, for one example. http://www.businessinsider.com/why-sochi-is-by-far-the-most-expensive-olympics-ever-2014-1 http://www.businessinsider.com/why-sochi-is-by-far-the-most-...
bitL 12y ago
Russia is obviously preparing for a war. They are trying to build and control their own services for everything (finance, e-commerce, even CPU manufacturing etc.) so that the country doesn't collapse once it is cut off from the West, the weakness China doesn't have. It sucks for all the people that want to enjoy freedom there.
- informatimago 12y ago
  USA does all it can to cut Russia off from the rest of the world.
  - disputin 12y ago
    Russia doesn't help itself with its oppressive paranoia.
    - disputin 12y ago
      I'm guessing it's not Pussy Riot voting me down.
- insuffi 12y ago
  Or rather it has to do with Russia and the Brics trying to subvert the dollar, not war. Not to mention, there's no way it would get cut off from the west at this point, if only in political rhetoric. Nordstream and Southstream kicked Washington in the balls at every turn, to the point where they're almost dropping their intentions. Next, the west has a shit ton of money invested in the Russian stock markets. Their stock markets rebounded back to previous levels a few weeks after the sanctions. Furthermore, military equipment. See France. Uh, freedom. what? Have you been to Russia?
  - disputin 12y ago
    Agreed, economic war, geopolitics, power plays, bravado, provocation, badgering, undermining, not military war.
- 12y ago
bad_user 12y ago
> This is another regime looking to suppress dissent, just like China has been doing all along. No government can act without the acceptance of a majority of the citizens. China's firewall can only exist because the Chinese people are accepting it in the name of protecting children or other such bullshit - brits should watch out, as their personal liberties have been eroded in the name of safety for too long. And if you live in the US, I suppose you're familiar with the Patriot Act ;-) No, governments don't do this unless a majority approves - that they approve for the wrong reasons, that's another story entirely. But as I kept saying ever since Snowden's leaks happened - the US government fucked things up, they won't even admit to how badly they fucked up and this will have deep repercussions internationally regarding the future of the Internet. A lot of international (mostly US) companies will get hurt by this, because (1) they didn't have a saying in the matter, yet the public views them as being guilty nonetheless and (2) because of balkanization. And the US can't point fingers and say "look who's talking", as that won't achieve anything. Say that to the Russian public who approves this. The US, as the stewart of the Internet, should have been careful to not fuck things up so badly in the first place. And after Snowden's leaks I would have liked to see some apologies, some heads falling - but ALAS, no, nothing of the sort - only a direct confirmation that they don't care about the rights of foreign individuals and as a non-US citizen, how do you think that makes me feel?
- happyscrappy 12y ago
  I guess you haven't heard: "The Five Eyes are cooperating with various 3rd Party countries in at least two groups: The "Nine Eyes", consisting of the Five Eyes plus Denmark, France, the Netherlands and Norway. The "Fourteen Eyes", consisting of the same countries as the Nine Eyes plus Germany, Belgium, Italy, Spain and Sweden.[41] The actual name of this group is SIGINT Seniors Europe (SSEUR) and its purpose is coordinating the exchange of military signals intelligence among its members.[42] Germany is reportedly interested in moving closer to the inner circle: an internal GCHQ document from 2009 said that the “Germans were a little grumpy at not being invited to join the 9-Eyes group." Germany may even wish to join Five Eyes.[43] Referring to Five Eyes, French President François Hollande has said that his country is "not within that framework and we don't intend to join."[44] According to a former top U.S. official, "Germany joining would be a possibility, but not France – France itself spies on the US far too aggressively for that." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Eyes#Future_enlargement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Eyes#Future_enlargemen...
coldtea 12y ago
>Not even close. This is another regime looking to suppress dissent, just like China has been doing all along. They don't trust their own citizens, not "corporations and other stewards of this medium." You're buying a flimsy excuse for cracking down on free speech. Russia, as a sovereign state has the right to make its own mind, including for what it considers dissidents. It's not the place of some foreigners to judge that. Especially since it's a democracy, and people voted for their government, however some foreigners might or might not like it. Even if you disagree with their current regime, it's the regime the Russian people voted for, and they can also change it in the future. And regardless if it is a good or a bad government, there is really no excuse for a sovereign country to give access to its citizens data to an external power, especially one which treats foreign information like intelligence data and doesn't care at all about their privacy. Better to be abused by your own government, the one you voted for, even if it's bad and abusive, than by some regime outside your borders. If Americans had their Facebook/Google/etc data in a third country and those countries services treated them as US services do, they would be screaming bloody murder. >Their problem has never been that some company cooperates with the US. It has always been that multinationals couldn't be easily strong-armed into cooperating with the local authorities. And why shouldn't they be strong-armed into cooperating with the local authorities? It's their country, their rules, not something for multinationals to piss all over.
cyphunk 12y ago
The statement you quoted of mine doesn't directly relate to Russia at all, considering that other democratic nations are taking the same steps and many citizens, even in the EU, are asking for the same. Russia is different, I understand. However to imply that their actions were not influenced by the actions and complacency of Western nations is to assume they are fools.

hopeless 12y ago

I could easily see the EU strengthening our data protection laws in the next few years to take us in this direction. In light of the NSA scandals there's probably a strong justification for this… except that the UK is a bigger danger to privacy and it operates within the EU.

Amezarak 12y ago
Nearly every EU country is documented to have similar programs, not just the UK. Some are even much more aggressive about industrial espionage - for example, France. When European politicians make noise about using European-based services, it isn't so they can be sure your privacy is protected, it's so EU-based organizations can access those servers without having to negotiate with the NSA. As a side benefit, they can claim it's good for the local economy. The NSA revelations are just a pretext. Every European country knew exactly what was going on; they were complicit in it and they had varying levels of sharing agreements with the NSA.
- mercurial 12y ago
  It's not as clear-cut. The motivation of pro-privacy MEPs from the left-wing EU parties are most likely entirely different from the ones of the Council of Europe. But your point about most EU intelligence services being engaged in spying on EU citizens stands, unfortunately.
- hopeless 12y ago
  Whilst most of the larger EU countries have some civil spying program, the UK operates on a much wider scale throughout the world. It is also particularly concerning for me in Ireland as a large portion of Irish internet traffic must flow through the UK, and there are specific monitoring stations setup to intercept this fibre.

insuffi 12y ago

It's certainly not that Putin needs to suppress dissent from his own people. It's a very small minority in Russia that would like Putin removed. Now, if we're talking about the west investing x billion in "democratic institutions"(Ukraine, anyone?), it makes some sense for Russia to isolate itself. Obviously, it's easy to paint Russia as evil, but the cold war is over, buddy.

vdaniuk 12y ago
That's hilarious. People in Russia support Putin exactly because there are virtually no free mass media. This is one of the latest steps to block access to all media channels that may oppose Russian cleptocratic government.
- insuffi 12y ago
  Heh, Right. Is there free mass media anywhere else? Are you aware that any journalist who spoke out against the Iraq war never had a career again? Free mass media is a political talking point, not a real thing. Would you prefer Yeltsin? Putin is what Russia needs.
  - vdaniuk 12y ago
    Ah, yes, what about the USA. The favorite argument of putinbots. Because there are no other countries in the world, right?
    - insuffi 12y ago
      Oh wow, a putinbot. Great argumentation.
      - vdaniuk 12y ago
        Yes, based on your argumentation, your anonymous profile and your posting history, there is a big chance that you are paid to post here. Don't really care about your opinion, but other HN readers should know about the situation with Russian propaganda on social media: http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterhimler/2014/05/06/russias-media-trolls/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterhimler/2014/05/06/russias-m...

jqm 12y ago

Both mistrust of foreign companies and desire to suppress dissent could be reasons this law is being enacted. It doesn't have to be one or the other. And, there could even be a third element. Economic protectionism and "keep the money here". Or even a forth element. The lawmakers cousin owns a data center in Moscow:)

vdaniuk 12y ago
"Keep the money here"? That's for filthy peasants, noblemen of Russian bureaucracy hold their savings overseas.
- bilbo0s 12y ago
  They may STORE the money overseas... But they have to get the money from somewhere don't they? That somewhere is generally "fixed" Russian markets.
  - vdaniuk 12y ago
    Sure, I don't disagree with that. It is absolutely surreal how much funds were embezzled through the Olympics, for one example. http://www.businessinsider.com/why-sochi-is-by-far-the-most-expensive-olympics-ever-2014-1 http://www.businessinsider.com/why-sochi-is-by-far-the-most-...

bitL 12y ago

Russia is obviously preparing for a war. They are trying to build and control their own services for everything (finance, e-commerce, even CPU manufacturing etc.) so that the country doesn't collapse once it is cut off from the West, the weakness China doesn't have. It sucks for all the people that want to enjoy freedom there.

informatimago 12y ago
USA does all it can to cut Russia off from the rest of the world.
- disputin 12y ago
  Russia doesn't help itself with its oppressive paranoia.
  - disputin 12y ago
    I'm guessing it's not Pussy Riot voting me down.
insuffi 12y ago
Or rather it has to do with Russia and the Brics trying to subvert the dollar, not war. Not to mention, there's no way it would get cut off from the west at this point, if only in political rhetoric. Nordstream and Southstream kicked Washington in the balls at every turn, to the point where they're almost dropping their intentions. Next, the west has a shit ton of money invested in the Russian stock markets. Their stock markets rebounded back to previous levels a few weeks after the sanctions. Furthermore, military equipment. See France. Uh, freedom. what? Have you been to Russia?
- disputin 12y ago
  Agreed, economic war, geopolitics, power plays, bravado, provocation, badgering, undermining, not military war.
12y ago

bad_user 12y ago

> This is another regime looking to suppress dissent, just like China has been doing all along. No government can act without the acceptance of a majority of the citizens. China's firewall can only exist because the Chinese people are accepting it in the name of protecting children or other such bullshit - brits should watch out, as their personal liberties have been eroded in the name of safety for too long. And if you live in the US, I suppose you're familiar with the Patriot Act ;-) No, governments don't do this unless a majority approves - that they approve for the wrong reasons, that's another story entirely. But as I kept saying ever since Snowden's leaks happened - the US government fucked things up, they won't even admit to how badly they fucked up and this will have deep repercussions internationally regarding the future of the Internet. A lot of international (mostly US) companies will get hurt by this, because (1) they didn't have a saying in the matter, yet the public views them as being guilty nonetheless and (2) because of balkanization. And the US can't point fingers and say "look who's talking", as that won't achieve anything. Say that to the Russian public who approves this. The US, as the stewart of the Internet, should have been careful to not fuck things up so badly in the first place. And after Snowden's leaks I would have liked to see some apologies, some heads falling - but ALAS, no, nothing of the sort - only a direct confirmation that they don't care about the rights of foreign individuals and as a non-US citizen, how do you think that makes me feel?

happyscrappy 12y ago
I guess you haven't heard: "The Five Eyes are cooperating with various 3rd Party countries in at least two groups: The "Nine Eyes", consisting of the Five Eyes plus Denmark, France, the Netherlands and Norway. The "Fourteen Eyes", consisting of the same countries as the Nine Eyes plus Germany, Belgium, Italy, Spain and Sweden.[41] The actual name of this group is SIGINT Seniors Europe (SSEUR) and its purpose is coordinating the exchange of military signals intelligence among its members.[42] Germany is reportedly interested in moving closer to the inner circle: an internal GCHQ document from 2009 said that the “Germans were a little grumpy at not being invited to join the 9-Eyes group." Germany may even wish to join Five Eyes.[43] Referring to Five Eyes, French President François Hollande has said that his country is "not within that framework and we don't intend to join."[44] According to a former top U.S. official, "Germany joining would be a possibility, but not France – France itself spies on the US far too aggressively for that." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Eyes#Future_enlargement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Eyes#Future_enlargemen...

coldtea 12y ago

>Not even close. This is another regime looking to suppress dissent, just like China has been doing all along. They don't trust their own citizens, not "corporations and other stewards of this medium." You're buying a flimsy excuse for cracking down on free speech. Russia, as a sovereign state has the right to make its own mind, including for what it considers dissidents. It's not the place of some foreigners to judge that. Especially since it's a democracy, and people voted for their government, however some foreigners might or might not like it. Even if you disagree with their current regime, it's the regime the Russian people voted for, and they can also change it in the future. And regardless if it is a good or a bad government, there is really no excuse for a sovereign country to give access to its citizens data to an external power, especially one which treats foreign information like intelligence data and doesn't care at all about their privacy. Better to be abused by your own government, the one you voted for, even if it's bad and abusive, than by some regime outside your borders. If Americans had their Facebook/Google/etc data in a third country and those countries services treated them as US services do, they would be screaming bloody murder. >Their problem has never been that some company cooperates with the US. It has always been that multinationals couldn't be easily strong-armed into cooperating with the local authorities. And why shouldn't they be strong-armed into cooperating with the local authorities? It's their country, their rules, not something for multinationals to piss all over.

cyphunk 12y ago

The statement you quoted of mine doesn't directly relate to Russia at all, considering that other democratic nations are taking the same steps and many citizens, even in the EU, are asking for the same. Russia is different, I understand. However to imply that their actions were not influenced by the actions and complacency of Western nations is to assume they are fools.