5 ms·

If the numerous and massive data breaches, and subsequent credit card theft and fraud events of the last few years have taught us anything, it is that yes payin

by mrb 12y ago

If the numerous and massive data breaches, and subsequent credit card theft and fraud events of the last few years have taught us anything, it is that yes paying in bitcoins has one fundamental advantage: you are never handing the store your full billing info which can be stolen and reused by fraudsters. Now, Bitcoin also has its own security challenges (eg. how to secure a wallet), but there are solutions (hardware wallets) making it a fundamentally more secure way of transacting online.

sanswork 12y ago
Except when that happens with credit cards you're protected from loss so it doesn't matter as a consumer.
- danielweber 12y ago
  In fact, you aren't out the money at all, ever. If someone steals my credit card and runs up $8000 in charges on it, I'm not out $8000. There is a piece of paper somewhere that says I owe $8000, but that's not being out the money. One might have a model of "net worth" as "total assets minus total debts," and normally it's a decent model, and this makes net worth go down. But illegitimate debts put a wrinkle in that model. Never underestimate the advantage of having money versus being owed money. (This is a start-up lesson, too.)
- mrb 12y ago
  How naive you are. You could basically be arrested and branded as a pedophile if your CC info is stolen: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7326736.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7326736.stm I recognize this is an extreme story, but you cannot claim that CC info theft "does not matter". When it happens, there are many ways in which it can turn in a big pile of hassle for you.
  - coldtea 12y ago
    This is a BS, extremely naive argument in favor of bitcoin. For one, you can very much have the same happen to any bitcoin user, using their personal details online in such sites.
    - mrb 12y ago
      No. The point is that Bitcoin does not require you to share your billing info with the merchant. Therefore no info shared = no data leak possible = higher security.
      - coldtea 12y ago
        All those high profile merchants who accept bitcoins do require you to share your "billing info" so the argument is moot.
        mrb 12y ago
        Understand this is an issue in the merchant's processes, not with Bitcoin. Your argument is like saying "seat belts in cars don't always make drivers safer, for one people may forget to buckle up and not benefit from increased safety".
        coldtea 12y ago
        >Understand this is an issue in the merchant's processes, not with Bitcoin Sure, but the end result is the same. It's irrelevant whose fault it is. Or, reversely, nothing prohibits buying with credit cards online to be done differently and be safe from such fraud (e.g one-off credit card numbers with token generators). But in the real world, credits cards are used the way we know, and merchants accepting bitcoin still ask for those details.
        mrb 12y ago
        "the end result is the same" No it is not: with Bitcoin, an attacker knowing your billing info cannot steal your coins. With your CC info, he can make fraudulent purchases (obviously). Even virtual credit cards are not safe from fraud. Some transactions over the maximum spending limit or expiration date might still go through [1]. This makes none of them truly single-use since multiple charges can go through. Also, they are a PITA to use especially if you want to regenerate a one-off CC number for every transaction (which nobody does - there is no such thing as a "token generator" as you claim). For these reasons banks have been in fact discontinuing virtual CC services over the last few years, eg. see [2]. By contrast, a Bitcoin transaction is truly a one-time payment that is cryptographically authorizing a specific payment amount to a specific address, and nothing more. [1] http://lifehacker.com/5831160/use-virtual-credit-card-numbers-to-shop-safely-online-keeping-in-mind-the-downsides http://lifehacker.com/5831160/use-virtual-credit-card-number... [2] http://slickdeals.net/f/6614180-discover-is-discontinuing-their-virtual-credit-card-vcc-system-secure-online-account-numbers http://slickdeals.net/f/6614180-discover-is-discontinuing-th...
  - jusben1369 12y ago
    For better or worse MRB there are literally millions of cards stolen and compromised each year. And the biggest inconvenience 99% of these people suffer is waiting 4 days for a new one in the mail and having to remember to update their various subscriptions. So there might always be a horror story or two like the above but it's not really an effective rebuttal against the main point which is credit card fraud is not borne by the individual.
Nursie 12y ago
>> If the numerous and massive data breaches, and subsequent credit card theft and fraud events of the last few years have taught us anything, it is that yes paying in bitcoins has one fundamental advantage: you are never handing the store your full billing info which can be stolen and reused by fraudsters. This is also the case with ICC/EMV cards, though the USA hasn't caught up to that for some reason. --edit-- of course this only applies to physical transactions, online transactions are still vulnerable, yes.
bergeoisie 12y ago
I would much rather spend 10 minutes on the phone with my credit card company once every couple years contesting fraudulent transactions than have the potential for all of my money to be stolen if I make one security fuck up ever. The number of "I had all my bitcoins stolen, here is the list of 25 security precautions I've taken, where did I fuck up" articles is terrifying. I'm willing to sacrifice the 1% savings or whatever it is I'd theoretically get from bitcoin for that peace of mind.
- mrb 12y ago
  You completely ignored my 2nd paragraph. NONE of the theft victims you read about used hardware wallets.
  - lttlrck 12y ago
    They'll be replaced by people that forgot their PIN and lost the paper backup.
    - NSEDhom 12y ago
      If you refuse to take any responsibility in life, Bitcoin is not for you.
      - Nursie 12y ago
        So.... it's not for most people then? Because we've evolved a hell of a lot of ways for people to offload responsibility over the last hundred or so years, particularly where money is involved. In general I think it's a pretty good thing.
      - sp332 12y ago
        Why take responsibility when a credit card company will do it for you? That's a MAJOR selling point of credit cards.
        aianus 12y ago
coldtea 12y ago
>you are never handing the store your full billing info which can be stolen and reused by fraudsters. And you have to use a hard to obtain (bureucratic nightmare to exchange), volatile, dealing with shady "institutions" with no real history or assurances behind them (MtGox anyone?), and use a novelty currency for that? There are "one use" recharchable virtual credit cards used all over the world, you can "fill up" one from your online banking and have it handle as much or as little money as you want (e.g just for one transaction). This can be done wholly online, and takes like 1 minute.
kalleboo 12y ago
> paying in bitcoins has one fundamental advantage: you are never handing the store your full billing info which can be stolen and reused by fraudsters This is why I use PayPal whenever I can
gst 12y ago
Credit card fraud is a problem for credit card companies, but as a user I couldn't care less. The last time someone copied my credit card I've got a call from Amex within a few days, they reversed the transactions and sent me a new card. Of course Bitcoin would be more secure (I own some myself). But from a users point of view this additional security doesn't really matter too much. I rather pay with my credit card and get 1% cashback.

by mrb 12y ago

sanswork 12y ago

Except when that happens with credit cards you're protected from loss so it doesn't matter as a consumer.

danielweber 12y ago
In fact, you aren't out the money at all, ever. If someone steals my credit card and runs up $8000 in charges on it, I'm not out $8000. There is a piece of paper somewhere that says I owe $8000, but that's not being out the money. One might have a model of "net worth" as "total assets minus total debts," and normally it's a decent model, and this makes net worth go down. But illegitimate debts put a wrinkle in that model. Never underestimate the advantage of having money versus being owed money. (This is a start-up lesson, too.)
mrb 12y ago
How naive you are. You could basically be arrested and branded as a pedophile if your CC info is stolen: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7326736.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7326736.stm I recognize this is an extreme story, but you cannot claim that CC info theft "does not matter". When it happens, there are many ways in which it can turn in a big pile of hassle for you.
- coldtea 12y ago
  This is a BS, extremely naive argument in favor of bitcoin. For one, you can very much have the same happen to any bitcoin user, using their personal details online in such sites.
  - mrb 12y ago
    No. The point is that Bitcoin does not require you to share your billing info with the merchant. Therefore no info shared = no data leak possible = higher security.
    - coldtea 12y ago
      All those high profile merchants who accept bitcoins do require you to share your "billing info" so the argument is moot.
      - mrb 12y ago
        Understand this is an issue in the merchant's processes, not with Bitcoin. Your argument is like saying "seat belts in cars don't always make drivers safer, for one people may forget to buckle up and not benefit from increased safety".
        coldtea 12y ago
        >Understand this is an issue in the merchant's processes, not with Bitcoin Sure, but the end result is the same. It's irrelevant whose fault it is. Or, reversely, nothing prohibits buying with credit cards online to be done differently and be safe from such fraud (e.g one-off credit card numbers with token generators). But in the real world, credits cards are used the way we know, and merchants accepting bitcoin still ask for those details.
        mrb 12y ago
        "the end result is the same" No it is not: with Bitcoin, an attacker knowing your billing info cannot steal your coins. With your CC info, he can make fraudulent purchases (obviously). Even virtual credit cards are not safe from fraud. Some transactions over the maximum spending limit or expiration date might still go through [1]. This makes none of them truly single-use since multiple charges can go through. Also, they are a PITA to use especially if you want to regenerate a one-off CC number for every transaction (which nobody does - there is no such thing as a "token generator" as you claim). For these reasons banks have been in fact discontinuing virtual CC services over the last few years, eg. see [2]. By contrast, a Bitcoin transaction is truly a one-time payment that is cryptographically authorizing a specific payment amount to a specific address, and nothing more. [1] http://lifehacker.com/5831160/use-virtual-credit-card-numbers-to-shop-safely-online-keeping-in-mind-the-downsides http://lifehacker.com/5831160/use-virtual-credit-card-number... [2] http://slickdeals.net/f/6614180-discover-is-discontinuing-their-virtual-credit-card-vcc-system-secure-online-account-numbers http://slickdeals.net/f/6614180-discover-is-discontinuing-th...
- jusben1369 12y ago
  For better or worse MRB there are literally millions of cards stolen and compromised each year. And the biggest inconvenience 99% of these people suffer is waiting 4 days for a new one in the mail and having to remember to update their various subscriptions. So there might always be a horror story or two like the above but it's not really an effective rebuttal against the main point which is credit card fraud is not borne by the individual.

Nursie 12y ago

>> If the numerous and massive data breaches, and subsequent credit card theft and fraud events of the last few years have taught us anything, it is that yes paying in bitcoins has one fundamental advantage: you are never handing the store your full billing info which can be stolen and reused by fraudsters. This is also the case with ICC/EMV cards, though the USA hasn't caught up to that for some reason. --edit-- of course this only applies to physical transactions, online transactions are still vulnerable, yes.

bergeoisie 12y ago

I would much rather spend 10 minutes on the phone with my credit card company once every couple years contesting fraudulent transactions than have the potential for all of my money to be stolen if I make one security fuck up ever. The number of "I had all my bitcoins stolen, here is the list of 25 security precautions I've taken, where did I fuck up" articles is terrifying. I'm willing to sacrifice the 1% savings or whatever it is I'd theoretically get from bitcoin for that peace of mind.

mrb 12y ago
You completely ignored my 2nd paragraph. NONE of the theft victims you read about used hardware wallets.
- lttlrck 12y ago
  They'll be replaced by people that forgot their PIN and lost the paper backup.
  - NSEDhom 12y ago
    If you refuse to take any responsibility in life, Bitcoin is not for you.
    - Nursie 12y ago
      So.... it's not for most people then? Because we've evolved a hell of a lot of ways for people to offload responsibility over the last hundred or so years, particularly where money is involved. In general I think it's a pretty good thing.
    - sp332 12y ago
      Why take responsibility when a credit card company will do it for you? That's a MAJOR selling point of credit cards.
      - aianus 12y ago

coldtea 12y ago

>you are never handing the store your full billing info which can be stolen and reused by fraudsters. And you have to use a hard to obtain (bureucratic nightmare to exchange), volatile, dealing with shady "institutions" with no real history or assurances behind them (MtGox anyone?), and use a novelty currency for that? There are "one use" recharchable virtual credit cards used all over the world, you can "fill up" one from your online banking and have it handle as much or as little money as you want (e.g just for one transaction). This can be done wholly online, and takes like 1 minute.

kalleboo 12y ago

> paying in bitcoins has one fundamental advantage: you are never handing the store your full billing info which can be stolen and reused by fraudsters This is why I use PayPal whenever I can

gst 12y ago

Credit card fraud is a problem for credit card companies, but as a user I couldn't care less. The last time someone copied my credit card I've got a call from Amex within a few days, they reversed the transactions and sent me a new card. Of course Bitcoin would be more secure (I own some myself). But from a users point of view this additional security doesn't really matter too much. I rather pay with my credit card and get 1% cashback.