7 ms·

This is probably an insanely pessimistic view, but my first instinct after reading this is that there's got to be some absolute misery juuuuuuust below the surf

by nlh 12y ago

This is probably an insanely pessimistic view, but my first instinct after reading this is that there's got to be some absolute misery juuuuuuust below the surface of this place. Having seen and dealt with lots of HOAs (and seen how incalculably awful they can be), I've got to imagine that life in The Villages is probably pretty good if you play along with all the rules, trim your hedges just so, and keep paying those dues and growing old quickly and quietly. But if you're the kind of person who wants to change something, or is unhappy about something, or wants to improve something, or wants to do something even a tiny bit outside the boundaries, life gets rough pretty quickly. "I'm sorry, the board has decided you cannot do that." ... "I'm sorry, this decision is final." ... "I'm sorry, you must comply." In short: The Villages is probably pretty nice if you're a follower, and pretty nice if you're an owner, and probably pretty awful for anyone else.

qq66 12y ago
I think most people who want to live in a planned-out corporate retirement community with 42 golf courses are not bold iconoclasts looking to stir the pot. I'd guess that most people who move there know that they are trading conformity for predictability and are probably happy with the decision.
ChuckMcM 12y ago
I've seen HOAs that are both full of petty bureaucrats with unresolved anger issues, and ones that are out to make the community as widely accommodating as possible. No way to know without actually going and talking to folks. That said, any community with the ability to push out people unwilling to abide by the communities standards will have a higher satisfaction rating with members of the community. Whether it is by incarcerating people who violate laws (general practice in most US cities), disallowing member to said people (common in private clubs), or killing and torturing their families (seems to be a technique used in less civilized places). Some friends of mine have speculated what a retirement home for hackers would look like. Basically catering to folks who have strong opinions about "how" to live their lives. It isn't an easy question to answer.
- maxerickson 12y ago
  I think it would be a retirement home for people that aren't hackers anymore. The idealized notion of a hacker is someone that is engaged with life and that sort of person, in my observation, doesn't end up in a retirement home.
  - vacri 12y ago
    On the contrary, the idealised hacker loves having someone else take care of the base needs, so they can keep working on their 'thing'. Nothing in a retirement village forces you off the computer or workbench, out of your home and onto the golf course. As long as what you're hacking does comply with keeping the place looking neat and tidy (most hacker hobbies aren't at odds with this), I don't see a conflict between the two.
- AnthonyMouse 12y ago
  > I've seen HOAs that are both full of petty bureaucrats with unresolved anger issues, and ones that are out to make the community as widely accommodating as possible. No way to know without actually going and talking to folks. The real problem is that the association members could change overnight and there isn't really anything you can do to stop it.
- brudgers 12y ago
  The key element is a shared opinion about how other people 'should' behave. That's what makes golf courses a successful focal point for retirement communities in a way that say a shared interest in hunting probably can't.
  - declan 12y ago
    You're right about a key element being a (broadly defined) set of common values. But hunting also includes a broadly defined set of common values: appreciation for the land and conservation, love of marksmanship, support for 2A rights, etc. Which is why, of course, hunting-based mostly-retirement communities like Brays Island exist: http://www.braysisland.org/ http://www.braysisland.org/ "Recognized by enthusiasts as one of the premier locations for bird hunting in the southeast, Brays Island provides everything you need for a memorable and productive hunt. Of the island's 5,500 acres, 3,500 are untouched woods, marshes and fields set aside as nature preserves to guarantee your hunting enjoyment..." "The Brays Island Gun Club is the premier site for the enjoyment of shooting sports. With the finest facilities for clay shooting, we offer numerous forms of target shooting, including skeet, trap, five-stand, plus a newly re-designed sporting clays course featuring a picturesque 15 stations..." I'm not a hunter, but the inn looks quite pleasant. I'd go there for a visit if I were retired.
mattgrice 12y ago
It's 98% white, and nobody under 19 is permitted to live there without an exemption. I think it's fair to say that most people living there are actively opposed to change and diversity. HOAs are actually pretty popular in the south as a legal way of keeping the "wrong" types out -- people with large or multi-generational families, for instance.
- ianstallings 12y ago
  Fair? That's far from fair. You basically just called them all racists.
  - jonah 12y ago
    Fair not as in it's the fair way to behave, but that it's a fairly accurate description of what's going on. The parent's not condoning the community's exclusionary practices.
  - yardie 12y ago
    It doesn't look like he called anyone a racist. Look, I'm a minority and a place like this doesn't interest me at all. Not now and certainly not as I get closer to retirement. After a certain point (say 85%) you reach a tipping point where even if you wanted a diverse community it will be impossible to create. I know this because I was a participant in my university's minority recruitment program. They reached that tipping point and didn't realize it. No matter how much money they threw at it the numbers went down every year. Minority (specifically, black, native american, islanders and hispanic) students would arrive freshman year and transfer sophomore year. While this is typical in the entire student body it was dramatically higher for minority students. When I asked some of the students why they transfer a typical answer was lack of restaurants, shops, activities, and community that cater to them. A place doesn't have to be or do anything racist. After a while people self select and know where they aren't wanted or catered to.
    - a8da6b0c91d 12y ago
      It's interesting how having all universities become 40% (or whatever) minority is "diversity" but having very different universities where some are all white and some are mostly minority is not diversity. I would argue the latter constitutes more diversity.
devenson 12y ago
When driving through the area, I've spoken with a few of the residents, and they seem to enjoy it from what they told me. You have to remember that they're all among their peers.
brudgers 12y ago
During the Boom, I worked on some Del Webb communities after the brand was purchased by Pulte. There are two major segments to which retirement communities are marketed: + Retired to Play + Retired to Save From a community perspective, this means that you have people who are wealthy purchasing very modest houses right alongside blue collar retirees and talking grand children and exchanging lawn fertilizers over coffee and beers. And you have blue collar and corporate VP retirees playing golf together on Tuesday morning...and one of them may live in a 3000 square foot house and the other in 1150 and there's not a good bet as to which one owns which house. Retirement communities aren't like typical homeowner associations. There's much more self selection of residents - people don't move to a place like the Villages because of a job or schools or generally without the knowledge that they are buying into a particular image of the 'retirement lifestyle'. To put it another way, the set of people for whom a community with lots of golf courses holds appeal does not strongly overlap the set of people who take great pride in non-conformance to the social norms of golf course communities. Unlike a general golf course community however, there isn't so much moving there because it's 'right neighborhood'. People have sorted themselves out. They're not climbing the corporate ladder. They've been there and done that. That's not to say that there aren't insecure people, just that there tend to be a lot more people with a mature sense of identity on the balance.
shiven 12y ago
If someone doesn't like following rules "just so", my guess is they would/could/should have invested their retirement money in a nice cabin in the woods or a penthouse in the urban jungle, depending on their particular non-conformist bent. If trimming hedges, conforming to someone else's ideal of hedge-height, is not your cup of tea, then why would you want to waste your golden years playing the angry old man (or woman) in the first place? Life is too short, especially at that juncture, to be wasted on rule-rage.
blueskin_ 12y ago
I've heard about HOAs, and I think you're probably right. There's no such thing over here, and if there was, people just wouldn't listen. I'm regularly amazed people in the US put up with them whenever I heard about them. What would happen if you ignored them? As long as you aren't renting, you can't be kicked out; do they just give a UN-style "Please stop or we will have to give you a disapproving note"?
- stock_toaster 12y ago
  > What would happen if you ignored them? As long as you aren't renting, you can't be kicked out Actually, it depends. If you don't pay your HOA fees, or HOA imposed fines, some contracts (you have to sign before buying the home in the HOA) say they can foreclose your property and sell it at auction for whatever -- I think it has to be at least the amount of the unpaid fees though.
  - blueskin_ 12y ago
    I guess then my reaction is "what idiot would sign a contract like that?", but I guess desperation in most areas if there is a lack of other housing. After all, some people put up with living in London/San Francisco/New York/etc. where they will likely never own a home unless they win the lottery, so I guess if the need is high enough, people will put up with some truly terrible situations with where they live.
    - eitally 12y ago
      The reason people "put up" with HOAs is that nearly all HOAs are benevolent, passive organizations that do little more than keep the books and ensure common areas are adequately maintained. The most draconian most get is enforcement of landscaping standards and parking rules, which to me is 100% ok. I'm joining my HOA's board this summer, and the only thing I really intend to try and do that goes beyond that is to add a basketball court at one end of the swimming pool parking lot, and to repair some of the broken fencing along the greenways. The worst the current board infringed upon my rights was to deny my request to paint my front door red, using the justification that it doesn't go with the neighborhood's color palette. <banghead> They're right, but considering what some other neighbors have done with their doors (stick on faux stained glass anyone?), I was a bit miffed. For all the horror stories you hear about HOAs, there are thousands of them that are not overbearing and do serve the general interest of the community without irritating the homeowners.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
rwhitman 12y ago
When you move into a retirement village you expect a draconian HOA. It comes with the turf. And old folks make a de facto government out of it, because they have nothing better to do. But that's generally expected and most just deal with it. I left a comment about this, but the misery is on its way in the form of an unmanageable wave of long term medical care that local services can't keep up with. Putting hundreds of thousands of elderly citizens in an area without sufficient medical or social services is a recipe for some really sub-par end-of-life care that I don't think many of these folks really understand

by nlh 12y ago

qq66 12y ago

I think most people who want to live in a planned-out corporate retirement community with 42 golf courses are not bold iconoclasts looking to stir the pot. I'd guess that most people who move there know that they are trading conformity for predictability and are probably happy with the decision.

ChuckMcM 12y ago

I've seen HOAs that are both full of petty bureaucrats with unresolved anger issues, and ones that are out to make the community as widely accommodating as possible. No way to know without actually going and talking to folks. That said, any community with the ability to push out people unwilling to abide by the communities standards will have a higher satisfaction rating with members of the community. Whether it is by incarcerating people who violate laws (general practice in most US cities), disallowing member to said people (common in private clubs), or killing and torturing their families (seems to be a technique used in less civilized places). Some friends of mine have speculated what a retirement home for hackers would look like. Basically catering to folks who have strong opinions about "how" to live their lives. It isn't an easy question to answer.

maxerickson 12y ago
I think it would be a retirement home for people that aren't hackers anymore. The idealized notion of a hacker is someone that is engaged with life and that sort of person, in my observation, doesn't end up in a retirement home.
- vacri 12y ago
  On the contrary, the idealised hacker loves having someone else take care of the base needs, so they can keep working on their 'thing'. Nothing in a retirement village forces you off the computer or workbench, out of your home and onto the golf course. As long as what you're hacking does comply with keeping the place looking neat and tidy (most hacker hobbies aren't at odds with this), I don't see a conflict between the two.
AnthonyMouse 12y ago
> I've seen HOAs that are both full of petty bureaucrats with unresolved anger issues, and ones that are out to make the community as widely accommodating as possible. No way to know without actually going and talking to folks. The real problem is that the association members could change overnight and there isn't really anything you can do to stop it.
brudgers 12y ago
The key element is a shared opinion about how other people 'should' behave. That's what makes golf courses a successful focal point for retirement communities in a way that say a shared interest in hunting probably can't.
- declan 12y ago
  You're right about a key element being a (broadly defined) set of common values. But hunting also includes a broadly defined set of common values: appreciation for the land and conservation, love of marksmanship, support for 2A rights, etc. Which is why, of course, hunting-based mostly-retirement communities like Brays Island exist: http://www.braysisland.org/ http://www.braysisland.org/ "Recognized by enthusiasts as one of the premier locations for bird hunting in the southeast, Brays Island provides everything you need for a memorable and productive hunt. Of the island's 5,500 acres, 3,500 are untouched woods, marshes and fields set aside as nature preserves to guarantee your hunting enjoyment..." "The Brays Island Gun Club is the premier site for the enjoyment of shooting sports. With the finest facilities for clay shooting, we offer numerous forms of target shooting, including skeet, trap, five-stand, plus a newly re-designed sporting clays course featuring a picturesque 15 stations..." I'm not a hunter, but the inn looks quite pleasant. I'd go there for a visit if I were retired.

mattgrice 12y ago

It's 98% white, and nobody under 19 is permitted to live there without an exemption. I think it's fair to say that most people living there are actively opposed to change and diversity. HOAs are actually pretty popular in the south as a legal way of keeping the "wrong" types out -- people with large or multi-generational families, for instance.

ianstallings 12y ago
Fair? That's far from fair. You basically just called them all racists.
- jonah 12y ago
  Fair not as in it's the fair way to behave, but that it's a fairly accurate description of what's going on. The parent's not condoning the community's exclusionary practices.
- yardie 12y ago
  It doesn't look like he called anyone a racist. Look, I'm a minority and a place like this doesn't interest me at all. Not now and certainly not as I get closer to retirement. After a certain point (say 85%) you reach a tipping point where even if you wanted a diverse community it will be impossible to create. I know this because I was a participant in my university's minority recruitment program. They reached that tipping point and didn't realize it. No matter how much money they threw at it the numbers went down every year. Minority (specifically, black, native american, islanders and hispanic) students would arrive freshman year and transfer sophomore year. While this is typical in the entire student body it was dramatically higher for minority students. When I asked some of the students why they transfer a typical answer was lack of restaurants, shops, activities, and community that cater to them. A place doesn't have to be or do anything racist. After a while people self select and know where they aren't wanted or catered to.
  - a8da6b0c91d 12y ago
    It's interesting how having all universities become 40% (or whatever) minority is "diversity" but having very different universities where some are all white and some are mostly minority is not diversity. I would argue the latter constitutes more diversity.

devenson 12y ago

When driving through the area, I've spoken with a few of the residents, and they seem to enjoy it from what they told me. You have to remember that they're all among their peers.

brudgers 12y ago

During the Boom, I worked on some Del Webb communities after the brand was purchased by Pulte. There are two major segments to which retirement communities are marketed: + Retired to Play + Retired to Save From a community perspective, this means that you have people who are wealthy purchasing very modest houses right alongside blue collar retirees and talking grand children and exchanging lawn fertilizers over coffee and beers. And you have blue collar and corporate VP retirees playing golf together on Tuesday morning...and one of them may live in a 3000 square foot house and the other in 1150 and there's not a good bet as to which one owns which house. Retirement communities aren't like typical homeowner associations. There's much more self selection of residents - people don't move to a place like the Villages because of a job or schools or generally without the knowledge that they are buying into a particular image of the 'retirement lifestyle'. To put it another way, the set of people for whom a community with lots of golf courses holds appeal does not strongly overlap the set of people who take great pride in non-conformance to the social norms of golf course communities. Unlike a general golf course community however, there isn't so much moving there because it's 'right neighborhood'. People have sorted themselves out. They're not climbing the corporate ladder. They've been there and done that. That's not to say that there aren't insecure people, just that there tend to be a lot more people with a mature sense of identity on the balance.

shiven 12y ago

If someone doesn't like following rules "just so", my guess is they would/could/should have invested their retirement money in a nice cabin in the woods or a penthouse in the urban jungle, depending on their particular non-conformist bent. If trimming hedges, conforming to someone else's ideal of hedge-height, is not your cup of tea, then why would you want to waste your golden years playing the angry old man (or woman) in the first place? Life is too short, especially at that juncture, to be wasted on rule-rage.

blueskin_ 12y ago

I've heard about HOAs, and I think you're probably right. There's no such thing over here, and if there was, people just wouldn't listen. I'm regularly amazed people in the US put up with them whenever I heard about them. What would happen if you ignored them? As long as you aren't renting, you can't be kicked out; do they just give a UN-style "Please stop or we will have to give you a disapproving note"?

stock_toaster 12y ago
> What would happen if you ignored them? As long as you aren't renting, you can't be kicked out Actually, it depends. If you don't pay your HOA fees, or HOA imposed fines, some contracts (you have to sign before buying the home in the HOA) say they can foreclose your property and sell it at auction for whatever -- I think it has to be at least the amount of the unpaid fees though.
- blueskin_ 12y ago
  I guess then my reaction is "what idiot would sign a contract like that?", but I guess desperation in most areas if there is a lack of other housing. After all, some people put up with living in London/San Francisco/New York/etc. where they will likely never own a home unless they win the lottery, so I guess if the need is high enough, people will put up with some truly terrible situations with where they live.
  - eitally 12y ago
    The reason people "put up" with HOAs is that nearly all HOAs are benevolent, passive organizations that do little more than keep the books and ensure common areas are adequately maintained. The most draconian most get is enforcement of landscaping standards and parking rules, which to me is 100% ok. I'm joining my HOA's board this summer, and the only thing I really intend to try and do that goes beyond that is to add a basketball court at one end of the swimming pool parking lot, and to repair some of the broken fencing along the greenways. The worst the current board infringed upon my rights was to deny my request to paint my front door red, using the justification that it doesn't go with the neighborhood's color palette. <banghead> They're right, but considering what some other neighbors have done with their doors (stick on faux stained glass anyone?), I was a bit miffed. For all the horror stories you hear about HOAs, there are thousands of them that are not overbearing and do serve the general interest of the community without irritating the homeowners.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

rwhitman 12y ago

When you move into a retirement village you expect a draconian HOA. It comes with the turf. And old folks make a de facto government out of it, because they have nothing better to do. But that's generally expected and most just deal with it. I left a comment about this, but the misery is on its way in the form of an unmanageable wave of long term medical care that local services can't keep up with. Putting hundreds of thousands of elderly citizens in an area without sufficient medical or social services is a recipe for some really sub-par end-of-life care that I don't think many of these folks really understand