4 ms·

I personally still think that Valve made a huge mistake by basing SteamOS on top of Debian. I think they should have adopted Android as a desktop environment pe

I personally still think that Valve made a huge mistake by basing SteamOS on top of Debian. I think they should have adopted Android as a desktop environment per se (like Keepod [1] for example). This gives them access to the same developer ecosystem (tools and documentation) that Android games has already established, the same OpenGL-ES framework that Android uses. Additionally, Google has demonstrated Android-L applications running on the Chromium runtime and have access to the underlying hardware. Using something like Docker, I could have been running Android-SteamOS on my laptop and still been able to get RoR+Postgresql working. I think fundamentally, the huge fragmentation in the desktop linux world (cue the Systemd Wars) is hard to work around. But Android already has a single driver (Google) and Steam could have built a viable desktop Android based SteamOS. [1] http://keepod.org/ http://keepod.org/

ekianjo 12y ago
Android is hugely fragmented as well, and anyway Valve uses Steam runtime to go around the issue of distro fragmentation. I am running Steam on several different distros at home without any issue at all. Using Android as a desktop environment is a terrible idea, because you'll only get mobile GPU chips to work with that kind of software stack, and they are massively underpowered vs the graphics cards you have on PC. That's only a good idea if you want to play stuff like Angry birds on your TV, but any serious gamer would not want that.
lvillani 12y ago
> the huge fragmentation in the desktop linux world (cue the Systemd Wars) With Ubuntu adopting systemd (http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1316 http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1316), I guess the init system wars are basically over.
aroman 12y ago
Completely disagree, and I'm really not sure why you're characterizing their decision to base on Debian/Linux as a "mistake" (it's going very well so far). >I think they should have adopted Android as a desktop environment per se (like Keepod [1] for example). Android is not a desktop environment. Just as there are numerous desktop environments for Debian/Linux, so too are there numerous desktop environments for Android. There is no one clear standard on either platform. Valve wouldn't escape fragmentation by using Android; they'd merely embrace another kind. >Using something like Docker, I could have been running Android-SteamOS on my laptop and still been able to get RoR+Postgresql working. You can do precisely the same thing with Debian/Linux. In fact, that's precisely what it was designed for. >the huge fragmentation in the desktop linux world (cue the Systemd Wars) is hard to work around The systemd wars are over. Systemd definitively won, full-stop. Besides, what on earth does that have to do with Steam? Why should it need to have any insight into that level of abstraction? > But Android already has a single driver (Google) This isn't an advantage; it means that they have less flexibility. Why do you think Google itself chose to base Chrome OS on Gentoo Linux, instead of working with someone like RedHat? Flexibility and freedom. > Steam could have built a viable desktop Android based SteamOS. They already did — on Debian. Exactly what makes you think they regret their decision? Seems to be going very well, so far.
- sandGorgon 12y ago
  First, Arch has not adopted systemd. Second, fragmentation in Linux is different than fragmentation in android - the latter is about obsolete versions,while the former is about heterogenous operating system stacks. Third, I don't understand why people believe that the Android os will force you to use mobile chips. If valve would have adopted android,it could very much have brought on nvidia and ati to port to android (I don't know if it would have been easier). If the systemd wars have taught us anything ,then it is that flexibility is not always a good thing - which is why the CTTE voted to keep only one init system,rather than offer a choice. I do respect the fact that it is important for you. Fundamentally ,I think Linux gaming would be much better married to Android because of the sane and coherent graphics APIs as compared to desktop Linux. Read Jonathan Blow's frustrations stemming from his inability to port Braid to Linux http://www.develop-online.net/news/jonathan-blow-criticises-linux-dev-tools/0113967 http://www.develop-online.net/news/jonathan-blow-criticises-... I think a lot of people are resistant to the idea of having a touch centric interface on the desktop whenever I talk about desktop Android. But that is so untrue - you can build beautiful launchers for Android that replicate and improve upon desktop interfaces - Android L is bringing some of them bybrunning android apps in the desktop. Lastly,why am I downvoted ? You may not agree with me,but it is not as if I'm trolling.
  - jeorgun 12y ago
    Arch was one of the earliest distros outside of Red Hat to adopt systemd. It's been using it for nearly two years.
    - sandGorgon 12y ago
      Ah,my mistake - I was thinking of OpenRC. It is Gentoo rather than Arch,but I hope the example still holds.
broodbucket 12y ago
I completely disagree. They've already (mostly) solved the fragmentation issue by bundling a set of libraries with Steam that roughly resemble Ubuntu 12.04, and I've run Steam on just about every distro out there and had good experiences. The desktop gaming industry doesn't want a pre-existing developer ecosystem like Android has. It wants something like it already has on Windows, and more and more game engines are supporting OSX/Linux as build targets. I just can't imagine playing Dota2 on Android and have it perform better than on Windows (which is currently the case for Linux), and I can't imagine porting it to Android would be easier than porting it to Linux.
jfoster 12y ago
Why would fragmentation in the broader Linux ecosystem affect the narrower SteamOS platform? Valve can safely ignore Linux fragmentation.

ekianjo 12y ago

Android is hugely fragmented as well, and anyway Valve uses Steam runtime to go around the issue of distro fragmentation. I am running Steam on several different distros at home without any issue at all. Using Android as a desktop environment is a terrible idea, because you'll only get mobile GPU chips to work with that kind of software stack, and they are massively underpowered vs the graphics cards you have on PC. That's only a good idea if you want to play stuff like Angry birds on your TV, but any serious gamer would not want that.

lvillani 12y ago

> the huge fragmentation in the desktop linux world (cue the Systemd Wars) With Ubuntu adopting systemd (http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1316 http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1316), I guess the init system wars are basically over.

aroman 12y ago

Completely disagree, and I'm really not sure why you're characterizing their decision to base on Debian/Linux as a "mistake" (it's going very well so far). >I think they should have adopted Android as a desktop environment per se (like Keepod [1] for example). Android is not a desktop environment. Just as there are numerous desktop environments for Debian/Linux, so too are there numerous desktop environments for Android. There is no one clear standard on either platform. Valve wouldn't escape fragmentation by using Android; they'd merely embrace another kind. >Using something like Docker, I could have been running Android-SteamOS on my laptop and still been able to get RoR+Postgresql working. You can do precisely the same thing with Debian/Linux. In fact, that's precisely what it was designed for. >the huge fragmentation in the desktop linux world (cue the Systemd Wars) is hard to work around The systemd wars are over. Systemd definitively won, full-stop. Besides, what on earth does that have to do with Steam? Why should it need to have any insight into that level of abstraction? > But Android already has a single driver (Google) This isn't an advantage; it means that they have less flexibility. Why do you think Google itself chose to base Chrome OS on Gentoo Linux, instead of working with someone like RedHat? Flexibility and freedom. > Steam could have built a viable desktop Android based SteamOS. They already did — on Debian. Exactly what makes you think they regret their decision? Seems to be going very well, so far.

sandGorgon 12y ago
First, Arch has not adopted systemd. Second, fragmentation in Linux is different than fragmentation in android - the latter is about obsolete versions,while the former is about heterogenous operating system stacks. Third, I don't understand why people believe that the Android os will force you to use mobile chips. If valve would have adopted android,it could very much have brought on nvidia and ati to port to android (I don't know if it would have been easier). If the systemd wars have taught us anything ,then it is that flexibility is not always a good thing - which is why the CTTE voted to keep only one init system,rather than offer a choice. I do respect the fact that it is important for you. Fundamentally ,I think Linux gaming would be much better married to Android because of the sane and coherent graphics APIs as compared to desktop Linux. Read Jonathan Blow's frustrations stemming from his inability to port Braid to Linux http://www.develop-online.net/news/jonathan-blow-criticises-linux-dev-tools/0113967 http://www.develop-online.net/news/jonathan-blow-criticises-... I think a lot of people are resistant to the idea of having a touch centric interface on the desktop whenever I talk about desktop Android. But that is so untrue - you can build beautiful launchers for Android that replicate and improve upon desktop interfaces - Android L is bringing some of them bybrunning android apps in the desktop. Lastly,why am I downvoted ? You may not agree with me,but it is not as if I'm trolling.
- jeorgun 12y ago
  Arch was one of the earliest distros outside of Red Hat to adopt systemd. It's been using it for nearly two years.
  - sandGorgon 12y ago
    Ah,my mistake - I was thinking of OpenRC. It is Gentoo rather than Arch,but I hope the example still holds.

broodbucket 12y ago

I completely disagree. They've already (mostly) solved the fragmentation issue by bundling a set of libraries with Steam that roughly resemble Ubuntu 12.04, and I've run Steam on just about every distro out there and had good experiences. The desktop gaming industry doesn't want a pre-existing developer ecosystem like Android has. It wants something like it already has on Windows, and more and more game engines are supporting OSX/Linux as build targets. I just can't imagine playing Dota2 on Android and have it perform better than on Windows (which is currently the case for Linux), and I can't imagine porting it to Android would be easier than porting it to Linux.

jfoster 12y ago

Why would fragmentation in the broader Linux ecosystem affect the narrower SteamOS platform? Valve can safely ignore Linux fragmentation.