5 ms·

Before Linux adopted "Containers", jails were invented in FreeBSD (by yours truly) and they ran Linux Apps just fine, thankyou. And SVR4 and SCO binaries too f

by phkamp 12y ago

Before Linux adopted "Containers", jails were invented in FreeBSD (by yours truly) and they ran Linux Apps just fine, thankyou. And SVR4 and SCO binaries too for that matter. The idea that your kernel can only give you one syscall-API is so 1990-ish.

KaiserPro 12y ago
Well the '90s are very much back in fashion. perhaps jails need's a little boyish mustache? also; hurrah for jails.
threeseed 12y ago
It's all about end user experience. Docker wrapped up containers in a shiny, red bow and handed it to developers who aren't that interested in digging around the OS to set it up themselves.
- lelf 12y ago
  The only thing that is more shiny about docker is the site with bootstrap. Jails are as easy (if not more) to setup and use as containers. The only my wish for FreeBSD is some easy way to do pkg install $PKG --and-run-it-in-jail=jail22 --thxbye
justincormack 12y ago
Linux was simpler to emulate back then, it has grown in complexity and the emulation has not kept up, although it does work for some use cases. Having worked on testing for the NetBSD Linux emulation (its getting better, didnt help having no tests) there is quite a lot missing (epoll for example is not yet emulated). FreeBSD still appears to only have 32 bit emulation which rules out most modern Linux apps.
- thejdude 12y ago
  What is it that makes "most modern Linux apps" not run on 32bit? Last I checked, pretty much all packages were available for both x86 and x64. If you're talking enterprise use, sure, some app servers might need more than a few GB, but that's a memory problem, not strictly a bitness problem.
  - MichaelGG 12y ago
    Well the idea of using mmap for large areas to simplify development can mean 32bit isn't usable even if the program doesn't need that much memory. It's about the address space in that case. One program would spin up lots of threads, each with a 1MB stack, which was hardly used. It'd die on 32bit even with no real memory pressure. Also, 32bit is less likely to get as much testing for server apps.
  - justincormack 12y ago
    Well docker has no 32 bit support. And not sure most proprietary software for Linux has 32 bit binaries still. Use of mmap. But you are right a lot of things still work. Only DragonflyBSD has dropped 32 bit support do far. Linux probably will by 2039 though as they seem unwilling to fix that.
dschiptsov 12y ago
"Containers" is the same kind of meme as "Cloud" - to quickly make money out of ignorant. Docker is nothing but professionally pushed "product". And, of course, you know much better what would happen to CPU caches and I/O context switching in a host OS under even a moderate load.) Update: Dear anonymous down-voters, I ran a FreeBSD Jail-based hosting in production for years in 2000s, while you, probably, didn't even finished a secondary school.))
- icebraining 12y ago
  Yeah, all that quick money they must be making from selling Docker licenses, right? Jails are not comparable to Docker. Jails are the container technology, like LXC and OpenVZ, which Linux has had for almost a decade.
  - dschiptsov 12y ago
    It is not about licenses, it is about "popularity". Now, could you elaborate how Docker is not a "container technology".
    - icebraining 12y ago
      Docker itself doesn't create container instances itself, it uses underlying technologies like LXC and libct, and in the future, possibly even BSD Jails and Solaris Zones. What Docker provides is the level above - the layered images, repositories, automated services discovery, etc - which LXC/Jails/etc don't provide. A closer equivalent in the *BSD world would probably be projects like CBSD, ezjail and such (in terms of the stack layer, not in features).
      - dschiptsov 12y ago
        OK, my bad, I should compare LXC which is basically chroot, like jails or zones. What I am trying to say is that chrooted envs for process segregation (like running a separate mysql instance) is not such new and exciting idea, and it has more disadvantages than benefits, at least for production use. (It is substantially slower and unpredictable due to memory access and I/O bottlenecks). On the other hand, for 98% of Docker = "containerization" (a new shiny meme) = cool, without even a bit of understanding what LXC is.
Andys 12y ago
We're really talking about users adopting containers that have been there in BSD and linux for 10 years now. Is now a good time to explain why SysV shared memory syscalls were never wrapped and are thus shared across all jails in FreeBSD? :-)

by phkamp 12y ago

KaiserPro 12y ago

Well the '90s are very much back in fashion. perhaps jails need's a little boyish mustache? also; hurrah for jails.

threeseed 12y ago

It's all about end user experience. Docker wrapped up containers in a shiny, red bow and handed it to developers who aren't that interested in digging around the OS to set it up themselves.

lelf 12y ago
The only thing that is more shiny about docker is the site with bootstrap. Jails are as easy (if not more) to setup and use as containers. The only my wish for FreeBSD is some easy way to do pkg install $PKG --and-run-it-in-jail=jail22 --thxbye

justincormack 12y ago

Linux was simpler to emulate back then, it has grown in complexity and the emulation has not kept up, although it does work for some use cases. Having worked on testing for the NetBSD Linux emulation (its getting better, didnt help having no tests) there is quite a lot missing (epoll for example is not yet emulated). FreeBSD still appears to only have 32 bit emulation which rules out most modern Linux apps.

thejdude 12y ago
What is it that makes "most modern Linux apps" not run on 32bit? Last I checked, pretty much all packages were available for both x86 and x64. If you're talking enterprise use, sure, some app servers might need more than a few GB, but that's a memory problem, not strictly a bitness problem.
- MichaelGG 12y ago
  Well the idea of using mmap for large areas to simplify development can mean 32bit isn't usable even if the program doesn't need that much memory. It's about the address space in that case. One program would spin up lots of threads, each with a 1MB stack, which was hardly used. It'd die on 32bit even with no real memory pressure. Also, 32bit is less likely to get as much testing for server apps.
- justincormack 12y ago
  Well docker has no 32 bit support. And not sure most proprietary software for Linux has 32 bit binaries still. Use of mmap. But you are right a lot of things still work. Only DragonflyBSD has dropped 32 bit support do far. Linux probably will by 2039 though as they seem unwilling to fix that.

dschiptsov 12y ago

"Containers" is the same kind of meme as "Cloud" - to quickly make money out of ignorant. Docker is nothing but professionally pushed "product". And, of course, you know much better what would happen to CPU caches and I/O context switching in a host OS under even a moderate load.) Update: Dear anonymous down-voters, I ran a FreeBSD Jail-based hosting in production for years in 2000s, while you, probably, didn't even finished a secondary school.))

icebraining 12y ago
Yeah, all that quick money they must be making from selling Docker licenses, right? Jails are not comparable to Docker. Jails are the container technology, like LXC and OpenVZ, which Linux has had for almost a decade.
- dschiptsov 12y ago
  It is not about licenses, it is about "popularity". Now, could you elaborate how Docker is not a "container technology".
  - icebraining 12y ago
    Docker itself doesn't create container instances itself, it uses underlying technologies like LXC and libct, and in the future, possibly even BSD Jails and Solaris Zones. What Docker provides is the level above - the layered images, repositories, automated services discovery, etc - which LXC/Jails/etc don't provide. A closer equivalent in the *BSD world would probably be projects like CBSD, ezjail and such (in terms of the stack layer, not in features).
    - dschiptsov 12y ago
      OK, my bad, I should compare LXC which is basically chroot, like jails or zones. What I am trying to say is that chrooted envs for process segregation (like running a separate mysql instance) is not such new and exciting idea, and it has more disadvantages than benefits, at least for production use. (It is substantially slower and unpredictable due to memory access and I/O bottlenecks). On the other hand, for 98% of Docker = "containerization" (a new shiny meme) = cool, without even a bit of understanding what LXC is.

Andys 12y ago

We're really talking about users adopting containers that have been there in BSD and linux for 10 years now. Is now a good time to explain why SysV shared memory syscalls were never wrapped and are thus shared across all jails in FreeBSD? :-)