5 ms·

How is your idea "basically the same thing"? Your idea seems to boil down to the calculation of a edits/views metric that supposedly implies something about th

by btn 17y ago

How is your idea "basically the same thing"? Your idea seems to boil down to the calculation of a edits/views metric that supposedly implies something about the quality of the entire article. WikiTrust tracks the edits relating to each word, and the edits of the authors making those edits to determine the trust of that text.

Alex3917 17y ago
If my proposal had been discussed in 2004 then the consensus might have been that the specific implementation that works best is the algorithm they are putting in place today. That's fine. The point was that I proposed that we had the same problem (and opportunity) in 2004 and came up with the same general approach, drawing on the same set of resources, and no one took me up on my offer to discuss it.
- radu_floricica 17y ago
  There is a time for each solution. In 2004 it probably wasn't seen a necessary enough.
  - Alex3917 17y ago
    Right, well in 2004 the total traffic was probably 5% of what it is now. That was before the whole Siegenthaler thing, which is when Wikipedia hit it's inflection point for traffic. The average article had maybe only 5 or 6 edits. That's why it made more sense to judge quality based on the entire article rather than the individual sentences, because for the most part each article was written by a single person with a few other people having fixed spelling or whatever. But yeah, I guess it just annoys me for some reason.
- thumper 17y ago
  I don't think that there was disagreement that there would one day be a problem, even in 2004. But "drawing on the same set of resources" doesn't seem like a fair way to think of it, especially to conclude that your idea would have led to the same thing. I am one of the researchers on this project, and there are no "resources" which are being made available to us -- it's been something of an uphill battle to do more than just talk. We came up with our idea in January 2006, and spent the year implementing it. Even now, with this attention and with it being open source, there are no volunteers stepping forward to help make it a reality on the Wikipedia itself. We receive very little funding (from CITRUS and LANL, not Wikipedia), and I pay my own tuition from my side-job. Our research group has been really focused this last year to make the code "production ready" instead of just research code, but don't forget that we are academics -- it's difficult to justify our spending time this way, except that we truly believe in the project. In terms of "credit for the idea", the earliest published work that I have seen is the "Puppy Smoothies" article in First Monday ( http://firstmonday.org/htbin/cgiwrap/bin/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/1400/1318 http://firstmonday.org/htbin/cgiwrap/bin/ojs/index.php/fm/ar... ) We cited that and every other blog posting (unusual for an academic paper!) we could find in our first paper. You'll see that there are actually several that existed at the time, but the real issue is in finding the man power to implement the ideas.
  - Alex3917 17y ago
    Gotcha. By resources I actually meant the data available (timestamp, page views, contributor history, etc.), and not the actual financial support. Anyway I wasn't trying to take credit for your work, I was just annoyed that no one wanted to discuss it at the time. Great job though, this is a really cool (and important) project!
    - thumper 17y ago
      Thanks. Okay, I see what you're saying. Actually, they still won't make that information available, though we have been asking a while. That was a big challenge when we started, but I think it was a good constraint because it pushed us in this direction to think about how the text itself evolves. Upcoming work will be looking at new signals to inform the page quality, such as activity on the Talk pages -- so there's no shortage of ideas, only of time to work on it. On the page views signal - there was a great paper in the last few years that came up with a way to estimate it from multiple other data sources (eg, Alexa). I don't remember the title, but it was an impressive bit of stitching together. If I had the time/money/resources, I would love to get that as a signal in our work and see if it helps. I'm not 100% convinced it would, because of vandalism I've seen which lasted for years on a somewhat popular page -- so even many eyes does not help if no one will take action to fix incorrect data.

by btn 17y ago

Alex3917 17y ago

If my proposal had been discussed in 2004 then the consensus might have been that the specific implementation that works best is the algorithm they are putting in place today. That's fine. The point was that I proposed that we had the same problem (and opportunity) in 2004 and came up with the same general approach, drawing on the same set of resources, and no one took me up on my offer to discuss it.

radu_floricica 17y ago
There is a time for each solution. In 2004 it probably wasn't seen a necessary enough.
- Alex3917 17y ago
  Right, well in 2004 the total traffic was probably 5% of what it is now. That was before the whole Siegenthaler thing, which is when Wikipedia hit it's inflection point for traffic. The average article had maybe only 5 or 6 edits. That's why it made more sense to judge quality based on the entire article rather than the individual sentences, because for the most part each article was written by a single person with a few other people having fixed spelling or whatever. But yeah, I guess it just annoys me for some reason.
thumper 17y ago
I don't think that there was disagreement that there would one day be a problem, even in 2004. But "drawing on the same set of resources" doesn't seem like a fair way to think of it, especially to conclude that your idea would have led to the same thing. I am one of the researchers on this project, and there are no "resources" which are being made available to us -- it's been something of an uphill battle to do more than just talk. We came up with our idea in January 2006, and spent the year implementing it. Even now, with this attention and with it being open source, there are no volunteers stepping forward to help make it a reality on the Wikipedia itself. We receive very little funding (from CITRUS and LANL, not Wikipedia), and I pay my own tuition from my side-job. Our research group has been really focused this last year to make the code "production ready" instead of just research code, but don't forget that we are academics -- it's difficult to justify our spending time this way, except that we truly believe in the project. In terms of "credit for the idea", the earliest published work that I have seen is the "Puppy Smoothies" article in First Monday ( http://firstmonday.org/htbin/cgiwrap/bin/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/1400/1318 http://firstmonday.org/htbin/cgiwrap/bin/ojs/index.php/fm/ar... ) We cited that and every other blog posting (unusual for an academic paper!) we could find in our first paper. You'll see that there are actually several that existed at the time, but the real issue is in finding the man power to implement the ideas.
- Alex3917 17y ago
  Gotcha. By resources I actually meant the data available (timestamp, page views, contributor history, etc.), and not the actual financial support. Anyway I wasn't trying to take credit for your work, I was just annoyed that no one wanted to discuss it at the time. Great job though, this is a really cool (and important) project!
  - thumper 17y ago
    Thanks. Okay, I see what you're saying. Actually, they still won't make that information available, though we have been asking a while. That was a big challenge when we started, but I think it was a good constraint because it pushed us in this direction to think about how the text itself evolves. Upcoming work will be looking at new signals to inform the page quality, such as activity on the Talk pages -- so there's no shortage of ideas, only of time to work on it. On the page views signal - there was a great paper in the last few years that came up with a way to estimate it from multiple other data sources (eg, Alexa). I don't remember the title, but it was an impressive bit of stitching together. If I had the time/money/resources, I would love to get that as a signal in our work and see if it helps. I'm not 100% convinced it would, because of vandalism I've seen which lasted for years on a somewhat popular page -- so even many eyes does not help if no one will take action to fix incorrect data.