4 ms·

Whether it's Alan Turing, slavery, war crimes, or anything else, the best apology to someone who is dead would be to stop doing the same things to those who are

by edw519 17y ago

Whether it's Alan Turing, slavery, war crimes, or anything else, the best apology to someone who is dead would be to stop doing the same things to those who are living.

RyanMcGreal 17y ago
Yes, but an explicit apology forces a benchmark of accountability: if the government apologized to group A for committing B, why are they still committing B to group C?
- ftse 17y ago
  In an ideal world it would force a benchmark that a government would be honoured to meet. In reality, a government will do whatever it decides is in its own best interest. Which could be anything from making an 'apology' for misdeeds of a past generation to aggressively stimulating the bigotry found in the present one.
- anamax 17y ago
  "forces"? You clearly don't have much experience with groups of monkeys. Some of the known-successful ways to get around said "benchmark" are "this time it's different", "this government is good", "group C deserves it", and "we're not doing B".
  - radu_floricica 17y ago
    Yeah, but it's still much worse if the official climate is that it's "acceptable". It can always be worse, you know.
    - anamax 17y ago
      > Yeah, but it's still much worse if the official climate is that it's "acceptable". How about some supporting evidence? > It can always be worse, you know. Yes, it can always be worse, but whether or not a govt has said something is wrong has no predictive power on that issue. Every post-1900 by-govt mass murder was committed by a "we don't do those things" regime.
- ErrantX 17y ago
  I personally think its unlikely that an apology to Turing will change many attitudes to homosexuality or encourage a (lasting) crack down on discrimination.
  - GrandMasterBirt 17y ago
    True, it will just mean that homosexuals won't be treated to required mind-altering drugs (not the good stuff) and barred from working.
    - rms 17y ago
      What countries require homosexuals to be treated with mind altering drugs? Iran actually goes beyond chemical castration with required physical sex changes: it is illegal to be gay, but it is legal to be transexual. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Iran http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Iran
jacquesm 17y ago
That is so true it isn't making me happy at all... The retarded behavior against people who just want to live their life in their chosen way, and which does not in any way affect the lives of others is a real blemish on our society. And I fear we will not be getting rid of this during the rest of my life. Frankly, I really don't understand what the fuss is all about, so what if some people like other people from the same gender. Just let them be, it is their lives after all. Just like any binary system, all combinations in the table are valid combinations, those for whom the 'bits' line up in some way or other do not get to the tell the others they can't or should not exist.
- GrandMasterBirt 17y ago
  "Frankly, I really don't understand what the fuss is all about, so what if some people like other people from the same gender. Just let them be, it is their lives after all." Do not let yourself use the "to each his own" argument. Its PROVEN (like 2+2 = 4) that that outlook is plain ol' wrong (you can find it on wiki or something). What about people who roam around naked? Whats wrong with that? Its their bodies, who are we to discourage them? What about child molesters, they are having CONSENSUAL sex with young teenagers, who are we to stop them its their bodies. Please pick a better argument. Now: Treating homosexuals as outcasts is no worse than treating black people as outcasts for the way they are born. These people are not doing anything wrong (some might even argue that they are doing right by our society by helping with overpopulation problems) and they just want to be treated as normal people who happen to do something you don't completely approve of, not as criminals, or outcasts! In any case people have discriminated against groups for all of recorded history. So we need to stop it as much as possible because from ALL of history we can see what good comes out of discrimination.
  - randallsquared 17y ago
    What about people who roam around naked? Whats wrong with that? Nothing, unless the owner of the place they're roaming objects. There are, in fact, places where the owner(s) do not object, and few people are up in arms about it, especially in Europe. What about child molesters, they are having CONSENSUAL sex with young teenagers, who are we to stop them its their bodies. Molesting is not consensual, by definition. You might want to argue about what activities are or are not molestation, but if you make your argument about "child molesters", you've already lost any hope of convincing any of us that only non-molestation was going on. ;) I'd say that the "to each their own" argument works really well in many situations.
der_ketzer 17y ago
"Let your actions sound louder than your words". Everybody can apologize, not many mean it or do something about it.
omouse 17y ago
It's not only an apology, they're also calling for a posthumous knighthood.
- seldo 17y ago
  The petition is only calling for the apology. The person who created the petition has, separately, called for a knighthood. But that's not what the petition is about.
rms 17y ago
Well in the case of Turing, they did stop doing those same things to the living. In the USA, it took until 2003. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas Gay people are now mostly treated very well, except for that dumb restriction against nationally recognized same sex marriage. Give it 15 years though and one of the last bastions of state-sanctioned inequality will vanish.

by edw519 17y ago

Whether it's Alan Turing, slavery, war crimes, or anything else, the best apology to someone who is dead would be to stop doing the same things to those who are living.

RyanMcGreal 17y ago

Yes, but an explicit apology forces a benchmark of accountability: if the government apologized to group A for committing B, why are they still committing B to group C?

ftse 17y ago
In an ideal world it would force a benchmark that a government would be honoured to meet. In reality, a government will do whatever it decides is in its own best interest. Which could be anything from making an 'apology' for misdeeds of a past generation to aggressively stimulating the bigotry found in the present one.
anamax 17y ago
"forces"? You clearly don't have much experience with groups of monkeys. Some of the known-successful ways to get around said "benchmark" are "this time it's different", "this government is good", "group C deserves it", and "we're not doing B".
- radu_floricica 17y ago
  Yeah, but it's still much worse if the official climate is that it's "acceptable". It can always be worse, you know.
  - anamax 17y ago
    > Yeah, but it's still much worse if the official climate is that it's "acceptable". How about some supporting evidence? > It can always be worse, you know. Yes, it can always be worse, but whether or not a govt has said something is wrong has no predictive power on that issue. Every post-1900 by-govt mass murder was committed by a "we don't do those things" regime.
ErrantX 17y ago
I personally think its unlikely that an apology to Turing will change many attitudes to homosexuality or encourage a (lasting) crack down on discrimination.
- GrandMasterBirt 17y ago
  True, it will just mean that homosexuals won't be treated to required mind-altering drugs (not the good stuff) and barred from working.
  - rms 17y ago
    What countries require homosexuals to be treated with mind altering drugs? Iran actually goes beyond chemical castration with required physical sex changes: it is illegal to be gay, but it is legal to be transexual. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Iran http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Iran

jacquesm 17y ago

That is so true it isn't making me happy at all... The retarded behavior against people who just want to live their life in their chosen way, and which does not in any way affect the lives of others is a real blemish on our society. And I fear we will not be getting rid of this during the rest of my life. Frankly, I really don't understand what the fuss is all about, so what if some people like other people from the same gender. Just let them be, it is their lives after all. Just like any binary system, all combinations in the table are valid combinations, those for whom the 'bits' line up in some way or other do not get to the tell the others they can't or should not exist.

GrandMasterBirt 17y ago
"Frankly, I really don't understand what the fuss is all about, so what if some people like other people from the same gender. Just let them be, it is their lives after all." Do not let yourself use the "to each his own" argument. Its PROVEN (like 2+2 = 4) that that outlook is plain ol' wrong (you can find it on wiki or something). What about people who roam around naked? Whats wrong with that? Its their bodies, who are we to discourage them? What about child molesters, they are having CONSENSUAL sex with young teenagers, who are we to stop them its their bodies. Please pick a better argument. Now: Treating homosexuals as outcasts is no worse than treating black people as outcasts for the way they are born. These people are not doing anything wrong (some might even argue that they are doing right by our society by helping with overpopulation problems) and they just want to be treated as normal people who happen to do something you don't completely approve of, not as criminals, or outcasts! In any case people have discriminated against groups for all of recorded history. So we need to stop it as much as possible because from ALL of history we can see what good comes out of discrimination.
- randallsquared 17y ago
  What about people who roam around naked? Whats wrong with that? Nothing, unless the owner of the place they're roaming objects. There are, in fact, places where the owner(s) do not object, and few people are up in arms about it, especially in Europe. What about child molesters, they are having CONSENSUAL sex with young teenagers, who are we to stop them its their bodies. Molesting is not consensual, by definition. You might want to argue about what activities are or are not molestation, but if you make your argument about "child molesters", you've already lost any hope of convincing any of us that only non-molestation was going on. ;) I'd say that the "to each their own" argument works really well in many situations.

der_ketzer 17y ago

"Let your actions sound louder than your words". Everybody can apologize, not many mean it or do something about it.

omouse 17y ago

It's not only an apology, they're also calling for a posthumous knighthood.

seldo 17y ago
The petition is only calling for the apology. The person who created the petition has, separately, called for a knighthood. But that's not what the petition is about.

rms 17y ago

Well in the case of Turing, they did stop doing those same things to the living. In the USA, it took until 2003. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas Gay people are now mostly treated very well, except for that dumb restriction against nationally recognized same sex marriage. Give it 15 years though and one of the last bastions of state-sanctioned inequality will vanish.