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And without exceptional people to forge the way ahead, we'd all be doing common jobs. What does the plight of the gay community, the world over, have to do wit

And without exceptional people to forge the way ahead, we'd all be doing common jobs. What does the plight of the gay community, the world over, have to do with the exceptionally unfair treatment of one Alan Turing by the British Government?

RyanMcGreal 17y ago
It has everything to do with it - gays were and in many places are still persecuted for being gay just as Turing was persecuted for being gay. Even if your concern is only with exceptional people, think of this: what if a potential future Alan Turing is stymied from exceptional achievements because of barriers due to societal intolerance of his sexual orientation?
jacquesm 17y ago
Unfortunately Alan Turing wasn't treated any more exceptionally unfair than thousands of others in that period. An apology to the whole community and any survivors is in order and a posthumous knighthood for A. M. Turing. That would do nicely. On another note, whether or not Alan Turing gets knighted I don't think it should make any difference to the rest of us, the man should be a true hero of anybody that knows even a little bit of the history of computing.
- DannoHung 17y ago
  I would find that more than acceptable. But I think it's a little dismissive to say that Alan Turing didn't get stabbed in the back more than other gays. Here's a man who serves his country in an outstanding fashion and _then_ is violated and mutilated. I'm not trying to belittle the suffering of other gays, I'm just trying to highlight the exceptional pettiness of the government towards one of its greatest thinkers. It's like what happened to Oppenheimer during McCarthyism. Thousands of perfectly fine people forced out of their work because they were socialist or communist or even just didn't hate communism as much as was expected. At least Oppenheimer got something of an apology. That's not as bad as being chemically castrated, but I think the situation bears some similarities.
  - ErrantX 17y ago
    more than other gays Are you saying that in terms of the public profile he had and the major contributions he made? Because that's suggesting Turing deserved, and still deserves, special treatment for being a clever person (even though he actually faced less than some gay men at the time). I don't know but I don't imagine even Turing himself would want to hold a position like that. Im sure many more brilliant men were persecuted for their homosexuality most of whom we will never have heard of and never got their chance to make their contribution! :) Canonise the example, sure. But perhaps not the man: let him be known best for his contribution!
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    > Here's a man who serves his country in an outstanding fashion and _then_ is violated and mutilated. That is very true, but he wasn't violated / mutilated because of his serving the country (and the rest of the world incidentally). It wasn't to make an example of him. The only reason we even have the spotlight of how inhumane homosexuals were treated in those days is probably because an exceptional thinker also was homosexual. If not for that it is highly doubtful that there ever would be a way to petition about this with any chance of success. That's a sad thing, but I suspect it to be the truth.
    - pbhj 17y ago
      Was he homosexual or bisexual - his engagement and his acknowledgement to his fiancée that he had "homosexual tendencies" (eg http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/Biographies/Clarke_Joan.html http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/Biographies/Clarke_J... ) suggests that he was not exclusively attracted to men what actual sexual activity he undertook is not known to men nor I suspect to anyone else who didn't share whatever arena he chose for his affairs. The manner in which he was arrested rather suggests a honeytrap [I'm speculating here, assess for yourself] - which could account for any animosity of the UK Government, not particularly wanting to reward spies that fell victim to enemy traps. The other point at issue may be that Turing as a 40 year old was picking up teenagers for sex (according to the reports of his arrest) - would someone now be knighted who knowingly followed that sort of promiscuous lifestyle? Would you expect that to be true also in the mid 20th century? Turing was a great mathematician and left a great legacy in that field, other aspects of his character appear less clear.

RyanMcGreal 17y ago

It has everything to do with it - gays were and in many places are still persecuted for being gay just as Turing was persecuted for being gay. Even if your concern is only with exceptional people, think of this: what if a potential future Alan Turing is stymied from exceptional achievements because of barriers due to societal intolerance of his sexual orientation?

jacquesm 17y ago

Unfortunately Alan Turing wasn't treated any more exceptionally unfair than thousands of others in that period. An apology to the whole community and any survivors is in order and a posthumous knighthood for A. M. Turing. That would do nicely. On another note, whether or not Alan Turing gets knighted I don't think it should make any difference to the rest of us, the man should be a true hero of anybody that knows even a little bit of the history of computing.

DannoHung 17y ago
I would find that more than acceptable. But I think it's a little dismissive to say that Alan Turing didn't get stabbed in the back more than other gays. Here's a man who serves his country in an outstanding fashion and _then_ is violated and mutilated. I'm not trying to belittle the suffering of other gays, I'm just trying to highlight the exceptional pettiness of the government towards one of its greatest thinkers. It's like what happened to Oppenheimer during McCarthyism. Thousands of perfectly fine people forced out of their work because they were socialist or communist or even just didn't hate communism as much as was expected. At least Oppenheimer got something of an apology. That's not as bad as being chemically castrated, but I think the situation bears some similarities.
- ErrantX 17y ago
  more than other gays Are you saying that in terms of the public profile he had and the major contributions he made? Because that's suggesting Turing deserved, and still deserves, special treatment for being a clever person (even though he actually faced less than some gay men at the time). I don't know but I don't imagine even Turing himself would want to hold a position like that. Im sure many more brilliant men were persecuted for their homosexuality most of whom we will never have heard of and never got their chance to make their contribution! :) Canonise the example, sure. But perhaps not the man: let him be known best for his contribution!
- jacquesm 17y ago
  > Here's a man who serves his country in an outstanding fashion and _then_ is violated and mutilated. That is very true, but he wasn't violated / mutilated because of his serving the country (and the rest of the world incidentally). It wasn't to make an example of him. The only reason we even have the spotlight of how inhumane homosexuals were treated in those days is probably because an exceptional thinker also was homosexual. If not for that it is highly doubtful that there ever would be a way to petition about this with any chance of success. That's a sad thing, but I suspect it to be the truth.
  - pbhj 17y ago
    Was he homosexual or bisexual - his engagement and his acknowledgement to his fiancée that he had "homosexual tendencies" (eg http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/Biographies/Clarke_Joan.html http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/Biographies/Clarke_J... ) suggests that he was not exclusively attracted to men what actual sexual activity he undertook is not known to men nor I suspect to anyone else who didn't share whatever arena he chose for his affairs. The manner in which he was arrested rather suggests a honeytrap [I'm speculating here, assess for yourself] - which could account for any animosity of the UK Government, not particularly wanting to reward spies that fell victim to enemy traps. The other point at issue may be that Turing as a 40 year old was picking up teenagers for sex (according to the reports of his arrest) - would someone now be knighted who knowingly followed that sort of promiscuous lifestyle? Would you expect that to be true also in the mid 20th century? Turing was a great mathematician and left a great legacy in that field, other aspects of his character appear less clear.