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Sorry, but your line of thinking takes for granted that criminality doesn't pay. On the contrary. Having a hidden fortune is more valuable than having a pubilc

Sorry, but your line of thinking takes for granted that criminality doesn't pay. On the contrary. Having a hidden fortune is more valuable than having a pubilc fortune, objectively in that you pay less taxes and forego frivilous lawsuits and subjectively in that you can walk around less paranoid of kidnappings. Second of all, there's no way to stop Karpeles from mixing his coins. People who don't have much experience using Bitcoin are often operating in the PayPal model, where it takes a trusted third party to spend your money and even if not, the other person is known. In the Bitcoin space, there is no trusted third party, and if your coins are mixed and you and the other person are behind Tor, there's effectively no identifiable information involved in the transaction. Embezzling Bitcoins is the perfect crime. As has been mentioned already, Karpeles has a history of computer fraud, so embezzling digital money would be right up his alley. He had the means, motive and opportunity to do so. When you consider the rampant embezzlement in a historical context ... it's pretty much case closed. Your argument boils down to "this time it's different". Also, laughing stock digital billionaire? Sorry but there's no such thing as a laughing stock billionaire. I'd take a billion knowing it would make me the "laughing stock" of the world, and so would anyone with a brain. If the community hadn't called Karpeles out on using transaction malleability as a fictional excuse for losing 850,000 BTC, and we had all believed Karpeles, he would in all likelihood be looking at Japanese bankruptcy court followed by a lifetime of traveling the world with a hidden fortune rivaling Satoshi's.

kbenson 12y ago
If embezzling Bitcoins was the perfect crime, there wouldn't be an active police investigation.
- Cyther606 12y ago
  There isn't an active police investigation, not in Japan at least. In Japan, there are bankruptcy proceedings scheduled, and absolutely no police investigation into embezzlement that anyone knows of. A court requested Karpeles appear in Texas to face possible charges for criminal wrongdoing, but again, this was only after he had been called out by the wider Bitcoin community for fabricating excuses. FYI: Karpeles turned down the offer. Fact is embezzling Bitcoin has unquestionably _been_ the perfect crime for everyone who has attempted it. Karpeles made copious amounts of errors on his way to embezzling coins, and there's still people out there like yourself that would allow him to get away with it. Imagine if he had been anonymous. Imagine if he hadn't used the transaction malleability excuse. Imagine if the MtGox private database hadn't been leaked. Imagine if there were no investigative reporters in the wider Bitcoin community! Again, if that were the case, which thankfully it has not been the case, Karpeles would be looking at simple Japanese bankruptcy proceedings followed by a lifetime of world travel with a hidden fortune rivaling Satoshi's.
  - danielweber 12y ago
    Have the missing bitcoins moved at all?
  - kbenson 12y ago
    > A: The police are investigating the case so I won’t be able to say much. But if asked, I’m willing to show any bitcoin entrepreneurs how I did it wrong, so they won’t repeat the same mistake. Is this part of the interview a lie then? I'm seriously asking, I don't know and you seem to have some information as to this aspect. It seems like a silly thing to lie about in an interview though. there's still people out there like yourself that would allow him to get away with it I'm not sure what you are talking about, but you seem to be projecting some argument on to me that I haven't made. I was simply calling out a bit of hyperbole. Imagine if the MtGox private database hadn't been leaked. Imagine if there were no investigative reporters in the wider Bitcoin community! Again, if that were the case, which thankfully it has not been the case... Exactly, there's quite a bit of scrutiny and investigation at this point. Hardly what I would call the perfect crime. Also, aren't these bitcoins traceable to wherever they are eventually used? Is it really that good of a crime when a) you'll forever face public scrutiny (to varying degrees) by people with a vested interest in recovering the money, b) may have an investigation as to your conduct, and c) your stolen money is forever traceable?
    - Cyther606 12y ago
      That part of the interview alludes to Karpeles claiming he was "physically attacked" causing hundreds of millions of dollars in losses no doubt. I only meant to imply that many have read this WSJ interview without any historical context. At this point, there may be scrutiny, but just a few months ago, people all over the place were claiming the US government must've seized MtGox's funds. If you look at @magicaltux's twitter feed, he even tried to fan flames on that government conspiracy theory in the same tweet where he began fabricating the excuse of being "physically attacked". To anyone who hasn't been following the MtGox fiasco since mid-2013, which is when MtGox first started having "liquidity issues", it may very well seem like Karpeles has been charged with fraud. No, that isn't the case. Karpeles has been screaming "Transaction malleability" (BS), "US government stole it" (BS), and now "Physical attacker stole it". The Bitcoin community actually went along with each of Karpeles excuses, but public opinion has just recently began to spell out FRAUD, loudly and repeatedly. There is still no criminal investigation of Karpeles for fraud, just a lot of loud people screaming it on the Internet, because it is obvious and because it has happened so many times before in the Bitcoin space. The truth is, Bitcoins aren't traceable if you know what you're doing over Tor. Anonymous spending is very much possible. Running a Bitcoin exchange with a proprietary database and large shared wallet with thousands upon thousands of BTC in it, is actually the perfect vehicle for coin mixing and I would be shocked if Karpeles didn't mix in personal BTC withdrawals over his years of running MtGox. It's really simple, transfer BTC into an exchange account with fake or no identifiable info attached to the account, wait a bit, and withdraw fresh coins. With judicious use of Tor, you have fresh new coins, and the original coins are tumbled around a gigantic shared wallet. There's just no practical way of linking BTC addresses to your identity if you know what you're doing.
aianus 12y ago
What is he going to do with a billion that he couldn't already do with $10m? He can't go from bankrupt to owning a $100m mansion or yacht or business without anyone noticing and investigating. > I'd take a billion knowing it would make me the "laughing stock" of the world, and so would anyone with a brain. Not if I had $10m. Marginal utility of those last $990m is easily less than the hit to my reputation and the cost of constantly fearing for my freedom and physical safety. Especially when I can't buy anything large and obvious with them.

kbenson 12y ago

If embezzling Bitcoins was the perfect crime, there wouldn't be an active police investigation.

Cyther606 12y ago
There isn't an active police investigation, not in Japan at least. In Japan, there are bankruptcy proceedings scheduled, and absolutely no police investigation into embezzlement that anyone knows of. A court requested Karpeles appear in Texas to face possible charges for criminal wrongdoing, but again, this was only after he had been called out by the wider Bitcoin community for fabricating excuses. FYI: Karpeles turned down the offer. Fact is embezzling Bitcoin has unquestionably _been_ the perfect crime for everyone who has attempted it. Karpeles made copious amounts of errors on his way to embezzling coins, and there's still people out there like yourself that would allow him to get away with it. Imagine if he had been anonymous. Imagine if he hadn't used the transaction malleability excuse. Imagine if the MtGox private database hadn't been leaked. Imagine if there were no investigative reporters in the wider Bitcoin community! Again, if that were the case, which thankfully it has not been the case, Karpeles would be looking at simple Japanese bankruptcy proceedings followed by a lifetime of world travel with a hidden fortune rivaling Satoshi's.
- danielweber 12y ago
  Have the missing bitcoins moved at all?
- kbenson 12y ago
  > A: The police are investigating the case so I won’t be able to say much. But if asked, I’m willing to show any bitcoin entrepreneurs how I did it wrong, so they won’t repeat the same mistake. Is this part of the interview a lie then? I'm seriously asking, I don't know and you seem to have some information as to this aspect. It seems like a silly thing to lie about in an interview though. there's still people out there like yourself that would allow him to get away with it I'm not sure what you are talking about, but you seem to be projecting some argument on to me that I haven't made. I was simply calling out a bit of hyperbole. Imagine if the MtGox private database hadn't been leaked. Imagine if there were no investigative reporters in the wider Bitcoin community! Again, if that were the case, which thankfully it has not been the case... Exactly, there's quite a bit of scrutiny and investigation at this point. Hardly what I would call the perfect crime. Also, aren't these bitcoins traceable to wherever they are eventually used? Is it really that good of a crime when a) you'll forever face public scrutiny (to varying degrees) by people with a vested interest in recovering the money, b) may have an investigation as to your conduct, and c) your stolen money is forever traceable?
  - Cyther606 12y ago
    That part of the interview alludes to Karpeles claiming he was "physically attacked" causing hundreds of millions of dollars in losses no doubt. I only meant to imply that many have read this WSJ interview without any historical context. At this point, there may be scrutiny, but just a few months ago, people all over the place were claiming the US government must've seized MtGox's funds. If you look at @magicaltux's twitter feed, he even tried to fan flames on that government conspiracy theory in the same tweet where he began fabricating the excuse of being "physically attacked". To anyone who hasn't been following the MtGox fiasco since mid-2013, which is when MtGox first started having "liquidity issues", it may very well seem like Karpeles has been charged with fraud. No, that isn't the case. Karpeles has been screaming "Transaction malleability" (BS), "US government stole it" (BS), and now "Physical attacker stole it". The Bitcoin community actually went along with each of Karpeles excuses, but public opinion has just recently began to spell out FRAUD, loudly and repeatedly. There is still no criminal investigation of Karpeles for fraud, just a lot of loud people screaming it on the Internet, because it is obvious and because it has happened so many times before in the Bitcoin space. The truth is, Bitcoins aren't traceable if you know what you're doing over Tor. Anonymous spending is very much possible. Running a Bitcoin exchange with a proprietary database and large shared wallet with thousands upon thousands of BTC in it, is actually the perfect vehicle for coin mixing and I would be shocked if Karpeles didn't mix in personal BTC withdrawals over his years of running MtGox. It's really simple, transfer BTC into an exchange account with fake or no identifiable info attached to the account, wait a bit, and withdraw fresh coins. With judicious use of Tor, you have fresh new coins, and the original coins are tumbled around a gigantic shared wallet. There's just no practical way of linking BTC addresses to your identity if you know what you're doing.

aianus 12y ago

What is he going to do with a billion that he couldn't already do with $10m? He can't go from bankrupt to owning a $100m mansion or yacht or business without anyone noticing and investigating. > I'd take a billion knowing it would make me the "laughing stock" of the world, and so would anyone with a brain. Not if I had $10m. Marginal utility of those last $990m is easily less than the hit to my reputation and the cost of constantly fearing for my freedom and physical safety. Especially when I can't buy anything large and obvious with them.