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Why would he want to be a laughingstock digital billionaire under police scrutiny in bankruptcy court when he's already a successful business owner with tens of

by aianus 12y ago

Why would he want to be a laughingstock digital billionaire under police scrutiny in bankruptcy court when he's already a successful business owner with tens of millions? It really doesn't make sense that he up and decided to steal them. If he did it he'll die having spent less of his stolen fortune than he would have spent of his legitimate fortune. Seems a lot more likely he's an idiot who got in over his head.

Cyther606 12y ago
Sorry, but your line of thinking takes for granted that criminality doesn't pay. On the contrary. Having a hidden fortune is more valuable than having a pubilc fortune, objectively in that you pay less taxes and forego frivilous lawsuits and subjectively in that you can walk around less paranoid of kidnappings. Second of all, there's no way to stop Karpeles from mixing his coins. People who don't have much experience using Bitcoin are often operating in the PayPal model, where it takes a trusted third party to spend your money and even if not, the other person is known. In the Bitcoin space, there is no trusted third party, and if your coins are mixed and you and the other person are behind Tor, there's effectively no identifiable information involved in the transaction. Embezzling Bitcoins is the perfect crime. As has been mentioned already, Karpeles has a history of computer fraud, so embezzling digital money would be right up his alley. He had the means, motive and opportunity to do so. When you consider the rampant embezzlement in a historical context ... it's pretty much case closed. Your argument boils down to "this time it's different". Also, laughing stock digital billionaire? Sorry but there's no such thing as a laughing stock billionaire. I'd take a billion knowing it would make me the "laughing stock" of the world, and so would anyone with a brain. If the community hadn't called Karpeles out on using transaction malleability as a fictional excuse for losing 850,000 BTC, and we had all believed Karpeles, he would in all likelihood be looking at Japanese bankruptcy court followed by a lifetime of traveling the world with a hidden fortune rivaling Satoshi's.
- kbenson 12y ago
  If embezzling Bitcoins was the perfect crime, there wouldn't be an active police investigation.
  - Cyther606 12y ago
    There isn't an active police investigation, not in Japan at least. In Japan, there are bankruptcy proceedings scheduled, and absolutely no police investigation into embezzlement that anyone knows of. A court requested Karpeles appear in Texas to face possible charges for criminal wrongdoing, but again, this was only after he had been called out by the wider Bitcoin community for fabricating excuses. FYI: Karpeles turned down the offer. Fact is embezzling Bitcoin has unquestionably _been_ the perfect crime for everyone who has attempted it. Karpeles made copious amounts of errors on his way to embezzling coins, and there's still people out there like yourself that would allow him to get away with it. Imagine if he had been anonymous. Imagine if he hadn't used the transaction malleability excuse. Imagine if the MtGox private database hadn't been leaked. Imagine if there were no investigative reporters in the wider Bitcoin community! Again, if that were the case, which thankfully it has not been the case, Karpeles would be looking at simple Japanese bankruptcy proceedings followed by a lifetime of world travel with a hidden fortune rivaling Satoshi's.
    - danielweber 12y ago
      Have the missing bitcoins moved at all?
    - kbenson 12y ago
      > A: The police are investigating the case so I won’t be able to say much. But if asked, I’m willing to show any bitcoin entrepreneurs how I did it wrong, so they won’t repeat the same mistake. Is this part of the interview a lie then? I'm seriously asking, I don't know and you seem to have some information as to this aspect. It seems like a silly thing to lie about in an interview though. there's still people out there like yourself that would allow him to get away with it I'm not sure what you are talking about, but you seem to be projecting some argument on to me that I haven't made. I was simply calling out a bit of hyperbole. Imagine if the MtGox private database hadn't been leaked. Imagine if there were no investigative reporters in the wider Bitcoin community! Again, if that were the case, which thankfully it has not been the case... Exactly, there's quite a bit of scrutiny and investigation at this point. Hardly what I would call the perfect crime. Also, aren't these bitcoins traceable to wherever they are eventually used? Is it really that good of a crime when a) you'll forever face public scrutiny (to varying degrees) by people with a vested interest in recovering the money, b) may have an investigation as to your conduct, and c) your stolen money is forever traceable?
- aianus 12y ago
  What is he going to do with a billion that he couldn't already do with $10m? He can't go from bankrupt to owning a $100m mansion or yacht or business without anyone noticing and investigating. > I'd take a billion knowing it would make me the "laughing stock" of the world, and so would anyone with a brain. Not if I had $10m. Marginal utility of those last $990m is easily less than the hit to my reputation and the cost of constantly fearing for my freedom and physical safety. Especially when I can't buy anything large and obvious with them.

by aianus 12y ago

Cyther606 12y ago

Sorry, but your line of thinking takes for granted that criminality doesn't pay. On the contrary. Having a hidden fortune is more valuable than having a pubilc fortune, objectively in that you pay less taxes and forego frivilous lawsuits and subjectively in that you can walk around less paranoid of kidnappings. Second of all, there's no way to stop Karpeles from mixing his coins. People who don't have much experience using Bitcoin are often operating in the PayPal model, where it takes a trusted third party to spend your money and even if not, the other person is known. In the Bitcoin space, there is no trusted third party, and if your coins are mixed and you and the other person are behind Tor, there's effectively no identifiable information involved in the transaction. Embezzling Bitcoins is the perfect crime. As has been mentioned already, Karpeles has a history of computer fraud, so embezzling digital money would be right up his alley. He had the means, motive and opportunity to do so. When you consider the rampant embezzlement in a historical context ... it's pretty much case closed. Your argument boils down to "this time it's different". Also, laughing stock digital billionaire? Sorry but there's no such thing as a laughing stock billionaire. I'd take a billion knowing it would make me the "laughing stock" of the world, and so would anyone with a brain. If the community hadn't called Karpeles out on using transaction malleability as a fictional excuse for losing 850,000 BTC, and we had all believed Karpeles, he would in all likelihood be looking at Japanese bankruptcy court followed by a lifetime of traveling the world with a hidden fortune rivaling Satoshi's.

kbenson 12y ago
If embezzling Bitcoins was the perfect crime, there wouldn't be an active police investigation.
- Cyther606 12y ago
  There isn't an active police investigation, not in Japan at least. In Japan, there are bankruptcy proceedings scheduled, and absolutely no police investigation into embezzlement that anyone knows of. A court requested Karpeles appear in Texas to face possible charges for criminal wrongdoing, but again, this was only after he had been called out by the wider Bitcoin community for fabricating excuses. FYI: Karpeles turned down the offer. Fact is embezzling Bitcoin has unquestionably _been_ the perfect crime for everyone who has attempted it. Karpeles made copious amounts of errors on his way to embezzling coins, and there's still people out there like yourself that would allow him to get away with it. Imagine if he had been anonymous. Imagine if he hadn't used the transaction malleability excuse. Imagine if the MtGox private database hadn't been leaked. Imagine if there were no investigative reporters in the wider Bitcoin community! Again, if that were the case, which thankfully it has not been the case, Karpeles would be looking at simple Japanese bankruptcy proceedings followed by a lifetime of world travel with a hidden fortune rivaling Satoshi's.
  - danielweber 12y ago
    Have the missing bitcoins moved at all?
  - kbenson 12y ago
    > A: The police are investigating the case so I won’t be able to say much. But if asked, I’m willing to show any bitcoin entrepreneurs how I did it wrong, so they won’t repeat the same mistake. Is this part of the interview a lie then? I'm seriously asking, I don't know and you seem to have some information as to this aspect. It seems like a silly thing to lie about in an interview though. there's still people out there like yourself that would allow him to get away with it I'm not sure what you are talking about, but you seem to be projecting some argument on to me that I haven't made. I was simply calling out a bit of hyperbole. Imagine if the MtGox private database hadn't been leaked. Imagine if there were no investigative reporters in the wider Bitcoin community! Again, if that were the case, which thankfully it has not been the case... Exactly, there's quite a bit of scrutiny and investigation at this point. Hardly what I would call the perfect crime. Also, aren't these bitcoins traceable to wherever they are eventually used? Is it really that good of a crime when a) you'll forever face public scrutiny (to varying degrees) by people with a vested interest in recovering the money, b) may have an investigation as to your conduct, and c) your stolen money is forever traceable?
aianus 12y ago
What is he going to do with a billion that he couldn't already do with $10m? He can't go from bankrupt to owning a $100m mansion or yacht or business without anyone noticing and investigating. > I'd take a billion knowing it would make me the "laughing stock" of the world, and so would anyone with a brain. Not if I had $10m. Marginal utility of those last $990m is easily less than the hit to my reputation and the cost of constantly fearing for my freedom and physical safety. Especially when I can't buy anything large and obvious with them.