11 ms·
Bitstamped
- marcell 12y agoNote that this appears to be a $9.99 version of http://www.proofofexistence.com/ http://www.proofofexistence.com/, a free service. Also, this does not appear to be affiliated with the popular bitcoin exchange Bitstamp.
- chuckup 12y agoWhat's with the terrible names in Bitcoin land? When deciding what to name your Bitcoin site, anything with the word "bit" or "coin" in it should be avoided. Please! Otherwise, you just join the list of other unmemorable bit/coin sites. And, this goes without saying, pick something that, when you google it, google does not say "Showing results for Bitstamp".
- inkfactory 12y agoPoint taken. "Showing results for Bitstamp" is irritating, but we only launched yesterday, hopefully Google will figure out that Bitstamped is a thing!
- danoprey 12y agoI have to admit, when I first read it I thought it was a new euphemism for being screwed over by Bitstamp, a la "Goxed".
- serf 12y agoWell, the comic made me laugh. I'm with chuckup though, I tend to quickly forget all the sites with names like this (regarding bitcoin specifically). Thank goodness for bookmarks.
- inkfactory 12y agoMarcell is correct - we use the ProofOfExistence.com API Bitstamped.io is not aimed at technical users - that's why payment is in USD and not BTC.
- ruxkor 12y agoWhile the method using to sign documents is identical (as posted by inkfactory), the main difference is that bitstamped is also hosting your files. This can be regarded as both an advantage or a disadvantage over proofofexistence, depending what your position is regarding the remote hosting of the document.
- shard972 12y agoSo I'm paying $9.99 every 3 months so that years into the future I will be able to prove I sent a document? I can see the value in proving you sent a document, but I don't understand the cost structure here.
- inkfactory 12y agoWe're still working on a pricing structure - it will likely be an annual or quarterly subscription, with a small fee to get each document Bitstamped.
- servowire 12y agoHere's an idea: Put the files in encrypted containers on a Torrent network. Or use maidsafe.net or storj.io
- kordless 12y agoI wish people would stop suggesting 'using' solutions that aren't yet launched.
- maaku 12y agoBut then how else do you socially signal yourself as an expert in a field you may or may not know anything about?
- kordless 12y ago"I've heard good things about the team at X.", if you've actually heard good things about them. "Those guys at X claim they can do Y.", if you have the folks at X on record actually claiming Y. Otherwise, you're just repeating something you heard, or wish you had heard.
- verroq 12y ago1. Make a SHA1 hash of your document 2. Convert the hash to a BTC address 3. Send 0.0001 BTC to the address you made 4. There you saved yourself $9.99
- machrider 12y agoPractically speaking, couldn't I just tweet the SHA1 hash and let Twitter be my trusted timestamp authority? Assuming I don't work for Twitter, it's unlikely I'm able to modify the timestamp on a tweet. (The blockchain has a lot more confidence due to its distributed nature, but in the minds of say, a jury of your peers, I bet it actually appears shadier than Twitter.)
- verroq 12y agoAlso post it on your Facebook, for prosperity.
- deciplex 12y agoAnd, even if that doesn't somehow make you rich, at least you've got it there for posterity, as well :-)
- servowire 12y agoYes, but that would be a centralized solution. When Twitter dies (wont happen, but still) or a rogue admin changes the timestamp, etc. - It requires a trusted party - Twitter - instead of the blockchain.
- zingermc 12y agoFor a more permanent timestamp, just post your hash in a newspaper's classified ads.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- JeremyBanks 12y ago
- tlo 12y agoHere is an article from 2013 that describes the concept: http://blog.erratasec.com/2013/05/bitcoin-is-public-ledger.html http://blog.erratasec.com/2013/05/bitcoin-is-public-ledger.h...
- servowire 12y agoI wonder how this deals with like .docx files or .xlsx (Excel) files. Even of you change 0 fields it might end up "mutated" and the Proof does not longer work. A single flipped byte destroys the entire concept. Tech savvy people can deal with this, but not the average joe. Cool concept nonetheless.
- inkfactory 12y agoI think you're right - not all smart people are tech savvy or command line hackers - so we offer an easy to use interface and store the file for them.
- servowire 12y agoI'm pretty sure any industry that handles documents etc. that would require a non-forgeable timestamp would not want (or are allowed due to regulation) to upload a billion dollar contract, legal document or patent to a website. No offence. They would want an in-house, closed system with (of course) blockchain communication for the verification part. Or maybe a tool that creates a "Magic" executable that contains the a) file and b) a "Check" button to do the blockchain verification.
- Geee 12y agoHuh, I thought someone got "bitstamped" - http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=goxed http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=goxed
- joeyspn 12y agoI thought the same! My first impression reading the title of this submission was: is now bitstamp acting like gox?
- markild 12y agoI understand that this concept has the upside of not having to trust a central authority, but is this really any better than trusted timestamping[0], at least from a legal perspective? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_timestamping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_timestamping
- latitude 12y agoI killed almost a year on a similar project and it flopped majestically. I even worked out how to do the whole verification part that it works out of the box without the need for any software or 3rd party service. You just needed a Windows box. Still that made no difference whatsoever, because ultimately selling this sort of service is like selling insurance. You have to force people to think about bad things that could happen in order to make a sale, and that's just not everyone's cup 'o tea. Postmortem - http://swapped.cc/certtime http://swapped.cc/certtime
- markild 12y agoNice writeup, I think your conclusion is pretty spot on. People neglect to buy insurance, don't back up data, and ignore safety margins. Why would they start timestamping their files. That being said, I really like how the service worked. If I understand it correctly, I would download the signed work (signed .exe with content included), which also means that I would have proof after the service got shut down.
- latitude 12y agoYup, exactly. It used AuthentiCode executable signing to bind VeriSign's timestamps to the documents. Basically, this allows for an unlimited use of VeriSign's mature and robust timestamping infrastructure for a cost of a single signing certificate ($150/year or thereabouts). Not to pat myself on the back, but I think it was nothing short of ingenious :)
- servowire 12y agoNice project, really well done. Thanks for posting
- inkfactory 12y agoI found your project when I was researching to see if anything like Bitstamped.io already existed. One of the key differences with Bitstamped is that the publicly verifiable time-stamp (the QR code link) is circulated with the printed document. So as well as the proof, it might also be a deterrent against plagiarism. I bet a lot of start-up founders go through that anxious "what if someone steals my idea" phase whilst they're pitching it around.. Having some part of the business plan (doesn't have to be all of it) Bitstamped might just help alleviate some of that anxiety. Maybe.
- comeonnow 12y agoImpending lawsuit from THE SOCIAL NETWORK... No, in all seriousness I think the key to services such as these is trust. Trust that no matter what the company won't falter and nip into the database and change a few dates. When people actually need this service, they'll really need it and I'm wondering without an accredited and independent survey of the site and company (as well an employees) whether this will be worth anything legally and in a court of law? I don't know
- TacticalCoder 12y agoDid you read the description of their service? They're using the Bitcoin blockchain to post the one-way hash proving that the document existed at a certain time. They wrote: "This is possibly the first non-currency application of the Bitcoin Blockchain packaged in a commercial way for non-technical users." That's precisely what Bitcoin is solving: it's the first system allowing to have trust without a chain of trust, without a central authority. And this is why IMHO Bitcoin is huge. In a way Bitcoin-the-cryptocurrency is "just" one application of that decentralized trust. Now that said that technique is known since a long time: if I'm not mistaken people have been using SHA256 of documents as private (?) keys to make a tiny transfer in the Bitcoin blockchain since basically as long as Bitcoin existed. It's good to see it as an easy-to-use service although apparently there are already free alternatives...
- comeonnow 12y agoNo no, I read. I'm just wondering in 10 years time whether the blockchain ledger will still be available, or still within it's current ownership. In my opinion the nature of using this kind of service is that you may not need it until many years ahead, some could argue that bitcoin may not be around then, or may not be a in strong position; people may lose interest etc. Not asking rhetorical questions, just seeing other peoples thoughts.
- josephagoss 12y agoI may be wrong, but I was under the impression most nodes are now opting not to store any "OP_RETURN" transaction. I once thought about storing information into the Bitcoin blockchain for another use case, but found out that very few nodes would actually store it.
- fiatjaf 12y agoThis is not storing information. You'll just send some BTC to some address. The address is the information.
- gioele 12y agoIf I have to pay, then why shouldn't I adopt a RFC 3161 or X9.95 timestamp service? Some jurisdictions recognize them as notary-equivalent certified timestamps. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_timestamping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_timestamping
- mike_hearn 12y agoIf what you want is legal protection then indeed there is no reason. Signatures vended by timestamping authorities are good enough for all uses I can think of unless you absolutely need decentralisation, in which case paying $10 to this company defeats the point. To get this service for free, just print your document to PDF, grab the free Adobe Reader, go to settings, signatures, click "Configure timestamping", then add a TSA server like: http://timestamp.comodoca.com/rfc3161 http://timestamp.comodoca.com/rfc3161 or http://tsa.swisssign.net http://tsa.swisssign.net or one of many others that are available. Then click "Work with certificates" in the sidebar and then Timestamp document. As long as you can convince a judge that these are neutral third parties (very easy to do and there is much precedent) this should be satisfactory. Or you could timestamp into the block chain, but then be prepared to spend a lot of time explaining to a confused judge why it's valid.
- corford 12y agoThanks Mike. Wish I knew about this trick yesterday before I sent out a sensitive document to a third party!
- legutierr 12y agoI find it interesting that you believe that it would be easier to convince a judge that some random centralized "authority" is trustworthy than it would be to explain how a hash written to the blockchain guarantees that that the timestamp is valid. The technology used by such an authority would be just as complicated and difficult to explain as the blockchain approach to timestamping. What you're counting on is that the judge would give more weight to legal representations made by an otherwise unverified "neutral" private entity than she would to a detailed explanation of the blockchain. What is it that explains how the blockchain--which doesn't require trust--would loose out to a private entity simply because bitcoin tech is complicated, and because a representative of that time-stamping authority would be able to sit in court and say "trust us, we have no stake in the outcome of this decision"? A lack of trust is supposed to be the primary benefit of the block chain, but it seems that in your view in this case it is more of a liability.
- artursapek 12y agoLike others have said, you're gonna have a really hard time getting Googled.
- JackC 12y agoA version of this idea I really like is Crypto Stamp: http://cryptostamp.net/ http://cryptostamp.net/ What kills you with Bitcoin timestamping is transaction costs. It's fine for timestamping that one brilliant screenplay, but not timestamping every photo you ever take, every video created by your security system, every file pushed out to your distributed, decentralized backup network, etc. It doesn't open up any cool applications that aren't served by existing, cheap-but-not-free systems. So with Crypto Stamp, they combine all the hashes for a given day into a single Merkle tree, and just store the root hash in the blockchain once a day. The tradeoff is, for each timestamp you have to store locally the few hundred bytes representing your branch of the Merkle tree. But in exchange, you can timestamp effectively unlimited files for effectively zero real cost. That opens up the kind of wacky game-changing applications that make Bitcoin interesting in the first place.
- inkfactory 12y agoI think you're right about the costs - Bitstamped is definitely better suited to use with a printed document, possibly just for a short period of time until formal legal protection can be secured, or even just for the purpose of quickly assuaging anxiety about an idea being copied.. Of course you could put a load of photos into one ZIP file and upload that, but that's not the intended use of the service.
- gwern 12y ago> So with Crypto Stamp, they combine all the hashes for a given day into a single Merkle tree Why can't you just hash your entire dataset once a week or something? Or better yet, do something like a Merkle tree of files.
- inkfactory 12y agoI've added a few screen-shots of Bitstamped.io to our blog here. Might help someone who just wants to see what's inside without creating an account:- http://www.inkfactory.com/blog/bitstamped/ink-factory-launches-bitstamped-io http://www.inkfactory.com/blog/bitstamped/ink-factory-launch...
- maaku 12y agoThere are better ways to do this. You shouldn't be pushing this kind of data into an OP_RETURN output where you are burdening the entire network to store, retransmit, and validate that information from now until the heat death of the universe. No, put your data into a Merkle hash tree, and do a single 32-byte commitment as frequently as you need to. You can even work with your competitors on a common format and have no more than one commitment per block.
- asciimo 12y agoOr use Namecoin, which was designed to store arbitrary information. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namecoin#Uses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namecoin#Uses
- gwern 12y ago> There are better ways to do this. No, there are not. What there are are ways which are slightly cheaper on a few dimensions which are irrelevant compared to the dimensions of reliability, cost, explainability, and ease of use which are totally trashed by your alternative suggestions. > No, put your data into a Merkle hash tree, and do a single 32-byte commitment as frequently as you need to. 'Did you just tell me to go fuck myself?' 'I believe I did, Bob.'
- maaku 12y ago> No, there are not. What there are are ways which are slightly cheaper on a few dimensions which are irrelevant compared to the dimensions of reliability, cost, explainability, and ease of use which are totally trashed by your alternative suggestions. That has no relevance. You build a standard for these proofs, and they are passed around as blobs. It doesn't matter what their internal structure is.
- gwern 12y agoYour reply makes no sense. It's like you didn't read anything I said in pointing out that sending to a Bitcoin address is simple, easy to understand, easy to use, and secure, while its main disadvantage is using a tiny amount of space which would require enormous increase in the use of timestamping to make any meaningful difference to full nodes.
- kyledrake 12y agoThe Winklevoss example is lacking. It's not important who thinks of an idea first, it's important who implements it and gets people to use it.