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We already knew America's police was getting militarized at a rapid rate. Now they're getting corporatized too. Its prisons are already corporatized. The full c

by r0h1n 12y ago

We already knew America's police was getting militarized at a rapid rate. Now they're getting corporatized too. Its prisons are already corporatized. The full circle is almost there. Living in a developing country like India, I'm sometimes half-thankful that our police is inept, woefully ill-equipped with weapons and government-controlled.

DrewRWx 12y ago
The decentralized abuse of the free market is far more terrifying than an omnipresent government power. Also, while the school to prison pipeline is a dire issue in parts of the country, private prisons are still a fraction of total US prisons.
- nateabele 12y ago
  Please explain how potential harm from entities you voluntarily engage with is in any way comparable to the harm of a single entity that can ruin or end your life on a whim regardless.
  - gress 12y ago
    You don't voluntarily engage with police or prisons whether they are government run or private corporations.
  - arg01 12y ago
    You are not volunteering to engage, you are an externality in someone else's transaction. It's comparable in the outcome to your life. Though admittedly there is a difference in that the single entity purports to obey rules that they claim are for your good while the other multiple actors aren't likely to have expressed any concern for you at all.
  - audunw 12y ago
    It's funny how libertarians think that once you remove government, all human interaction will be voluntary. Humanity is barely keeping itself in check in a complex system that has developed over time, with multiple forms of organization, and multiple levels of checks and balances. Most attempts at massive restructuring has failed horribly, either if it's been in the direction of socialized organization, or private organization. Both were supposed to lead to flatter structures and less abuse, but in fact lead to the polar opposite. But at the quip of an internet comment we're expected to realize in a flash of insight that "oh! it's so simple! if we just do it like this it will all be perfect."
    - anon4 12y ago
      In their defence, if we all really just did it like this, it really will all be perfect. Communism only failed because they didn't remove enough problems and over-extended their limited resources. Look at the Amish for a successful example.
    - pessimizer 12y ago
      I think you could pull off a Libertarian utopia with a very strong, very cruel dictator.
  - PhasmaFelis 12y ago
    Are you suggesting that engaging with the market is purely voluntary? I'm not sure you can call something "voluntary" when not doing it inevitably results in destitution and homelessness.
  - Drakim 12y ago
    I will be sure to inform these private SWAT teams that I do not wish to engage business with them when they bust down my door.
    - nateabele 12y ago
      Obviously, the fact that they consider themselves private is a farce. They're clearly a public entity.
- ChuckFrank 12y ago
  Drew, can you give me some examples, how is the decentralized abuse worse than omnipresent government/corporate power? Aren't the both bad? One for the lack of agreed upon standards , regulations and criminal, civil consequences, and the other for manipulating the playing field in favor of the few, and the power, removing from the the expectations of standards, regulations and criminal, civil consequences. Unfair, unjust markets are terrible either way. Or am I mistake about one vs the other?
  - DavidBradbury 12y ago
    It's all a point of view thing - If you're more liberal politically, you tend to trust government more and the free market less - If you are more conservative, you tend to trust the free market more and government less. Assuming Drew is more liberal, it makes sense that he would trust an all-powerful government over all-powerful corporations.
yummyfajitas 12y ago
Living in a developing country like India, I'm sometimes half-thankful that our police is inept... Isn't it great to be a man? [edit: I realize this flippant remark probably makes little sense for those who don't live in India. Ineffective policing is a very serious problem here, primarily for women. If I stay out late with a girl, it's almost automatic that I will escort her home regardless of the inconvenience to me. Black women often wear a keffiyeh at night to avoid racially motivated attacks. Physical security is a significant electoral issue.]
- Ntrails 12y ago
  If anyone is unaware of the state of violence against women in India I can only assume they don't read a newspaper. There have been several front page stories in the last year or so. I think you make an important (if biting) point for putting the parent in some context.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- alina24 12y ago
  "If I stay out late with a girl, it's almost automatic that I will escort her home regardless of the inconvenience to me." That works for those holding on to even the lowermost rungs of the middle class. Below that the condition of women, oppressed by caste and class(not direct but still a strong co-relation), their plight is hellish to even think of.
rtpg 12y ago
>Its prisons are already corporatized If you're talking about private prisons only something like 2% of inmates are in private prisons.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
  - pizza 12y ago
    I agree, but the way I see people comment on this topic it's as if they believe present-day inmates are being sent into prisons mainly for profit... It's a little misleading, to say the least.
- ANTSANTS 12y ago
  Even "public" prisons devour tax dollars to pay prison staff (who are unionized in some states with lobbies that fight for stricter laws and law enforcement and thus more prisoners to guard...), construction workers, suppliers of food, surveillance equipment, and so on. "For profit" prisons are just the logical conclusion of a rotten industry.
  - mseebach 12y ago
    By that metric, the entire public sector is "for profit". Unions across accrue and use considerable political power to benefit their members. I don't disagree, that's basically the core conclusion of public choice theory, but I suspect that's not what you meant?
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - ANTSANTS 12y ago
      Public choice theory seems interesting, I guess I have something else to read about tomorrow. I probably agree with your comment about unions, but that's a much broader statement than I was shooting for. I specifically think that the prison and anti-drug lobbies are vile, because they use their power to create and increase enforcement of laws[1] that enslave arguably innocent people (drug users and people that fell afoul of three strikes laws), purely for the benefit of their members. It's not just unions siphoning off tax dollars here, it's perpetuating war ("the war on drugs") against the US citizenry (and unwittingly or not giving power to organized crime, and causing worldwide violence and unrest, etc. etc. you've heard this story before). I bring up construction workers etc. because it's not hard to imagine a web connecting the companies that build the prisons to the police chiefs mandating arrest quotas to the "tough on crime" politicians and so on, along with their pocketbooks. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Correctional_Peace_Officers_Association https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Correctional_Peace_...

by r0h1n 12y ago

DrewRWx 12y ago

The decentralized abuse of the free market is far more terrifying than an omnipresent government power. Also, while the school to prison pipeline is a dire issue in parts of the country, private prisons are still a fraction of total US prisons.

nateabele 12y ago
Please explain how potential harm from entities you voluntarily engage with is in any way comparable to the harm of a single entity that can ruin or end your life on a whim regardless.
- gress 12y ago
  You don't voluntarily engage with police or prisons whether they are government run or private corporations.
- arg01 12y ago
  You are not volunteering to engage, you are an externality in someone else's transaction. It's comparable in the outcome to your life. Though admittedly there is a difference in that the single entity purports to obey rules that they claim are for your good while the other multiple actors aren't likely to have expressed any concern for you at all.
- audunw 12y ago
  It's funny how libertarians think that once you remove government, all human interaction will be voluntary. Humanity is barely keeping itself in check in a complex system that has developed over time, with multiple forms of organization, and multiple levels of checks and balances. Most attempts at massive restructuring has failed horribly, either if it's been in the direction of socialized organization, or private organization. Both were supposed to lead to flatter structures and less abuse, but in fact lead to the polar opposite. But at the quip of an internet comment we're expected to realize in a flash of insight that "oh! it's so simple! if we just do it like this it will all be perfect."
  - anon4 12y ago
    In their defence, if we all really just did it like this, it really will all be perfect. Communism only failed because they didn't remove enough problems and over-extended their limited resources. Look at the Amish for a successful example.
  - pessimizer 12y ago
    I think you could pull off a Libertarian utopia with a very strong, very cruel dictator.
- PhasmaFelis 12y ago
  Are you suggesting that engaging with the market is purely voluntary? I'm not sure you can call something "voluntary" when not doing it inevitably results in destitution and homelessness.
- Drakim 12y ago
  I will be sure to inform these private SWAT teams that I do not wish to engage business with them when they bust down my door.
  - nateabele 12y ago
    Obviously, the fact that they consider themselves private is a farce. They're clearly a public entity.
ChuckFrank 12y ago
Drew, can you give me some examples, how is the decentralized abuse worse than omnipresent government/corporate power? Aren't the both bad? One for the lack of agreed upon standards , regulations and criminal, civil consequences, and the other for manipulating the playing field in favor of the few, and the power, removing from the the expectations of standards, regulations and criminal, civil consequences. Unfair, unjust markets are terrible either way. Or am I mistake about one vs the other?
- DavidBradbury 12y ago
  It's all a point of view thing - If you're more liberal politically, you tend to trust government more and the free market less - If you are more conservative, you tend to trust the free market more and government less. Assuming Drew is more liberal, it makes sense that he would trust an all-powerful government over all-powerful corporations.

yummyfajitas 12y ago

Living in a developing country like India, I'm sometimes half-thankful that our police is inept... Isn't it great to be a man? [edit: I realize this flippant remark probably makes little sense for those who don't live in India. Ineffective policing is a very serious problem here, primarily for women. If I stay out late with a girl, it's almost automatic that I will escort her home regardless of the inconvenience to me. Black women often wear a keffiyeh at night to avoid racially motivated attacks. Physical security is a significant electoral issue.]

Ntrails 12y ago
If anyone is unaware of the state of violence against women in India I can only assume they don't read a newspaper. There have been several front page stories in the last year or so. I think you make an important (if biting) point for putting the parent in some context.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
alina24 12y ago
"If I stay out late with a girl, it's almost automatic that I will escort her home regardless of the inconvenience to me." That works for those holding on to even the lowermost rungs of the middle class. Below that the condition of women, oppressed by caste and class(not direct but still a strong co-relation), their plight is hellish to even think of.

rtpg 12y ago

>Its prisons are already corporatized If you're talking about private prisons only something like 2% of inmates are in private prisons.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
- pizza 12y ago
  I agree, but the way I see people comment on this topic it's as if they believe present-day inmates are being sent into prisons mainly for profit... It's a little misleading, to say the least.
ANTSANTS 12y ago
Even "public" prisons devour tax dollars to pay prison staff (who are unionized in some states with lobbies that fight for stricter laws and law enforcement and thus more prisoners to guard...), construction workers, suppliers of food, surveillance equipment, and so on. "For profit" prisons are just the logical conclusion of a rotten industry.
- mseebach 12y ago
  By that metric, the entire public sector is "for profit". Unions across accrue and use considerable political power to benefit their members. I don't disagree, that's basically the core conclusion of public choice theory, but I suspect that's not what you meant?
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - ANTSANTS 12y ago
    Public choice theory seems interesting, I guess I have something else to read about tomorrow. I probably agree with your comment about unions, but that's a much broader statement than I was shooting for. I specifically think that the prison and anti-drug lobbies are vile, because they use their power to create and increase enforcement of laws[1] that enslave arguably innocent people (drug users and people that fell afoul of three strikes laws), purely for the benefit of their members. It's not just unions siphoning off tax dollars here, it's perpetuating war ("the war on drugs") against the US citizenry (and unwittingly or not giving power to organized crime, and causing worldwide violence and unrest, etc. etc. you've heard this story before). I bring up construction workers etc. because it's not hard to imagine a web connecting the companies that build the prisons to the police chiefs mandating arrest quotas to the "tough on crime" politicians and so on, along with their pocketbooks. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Correctional_Peace_Officers_Association https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Correctional_Peace_...