7 ms·

Not bad for a motorpool guy. The place that I remember really needing some programmers was on the MI (military intelligence) side. They spend all of their time

Not bad for a motorpool guy. The place that I remember really needing some programmers was on the MI (military intelligence) side. They spend all of their time looking for patterns in data, and in 2009 it was still mostly done by hand. Plus that is where most of the smart Soldiers end up.

vivin 12y ago
The only reason I ended up in logistics is because my recruiter asked me what I was doing in college. I said "Computer Engineering" and he said "This has computers in it!". I was 19 years old and I had no idea about anything so I said "Sure, I'll do that!". We were also an artillery unit and so there weren't any MI positions AFAIK. By the time I was deployed I was working at Intel and I had already graduated with a bachelors in Computer Engineering. So that definitely helped!
suyash 12y ago
Why doesn't the Military hire more computer science graduates then?
- fleitz 12y ago
  Have you tried to hire programmers? Now imagine you're not offering stock, and are offering well below market rates, but at least they'll have meals made for them.
  - sp332 12y ago
    Offer to do their laundry. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7817895 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7817895
    - fleitz 12y ago
      I think the army does that too, however, I'm not sure.
    - mpyne 12y ago
      What has kept me in (after joining to get better pay during college) was medical services for my child and (related to that) the potential to get one of the few remaining good pensions available in the U.S. In fact the latter thing is the only real incentive keeping many very talented members of the military (or at least the Navy) in technical fields at pay below the private sector.
      - frankydp 12y ago
        Agreed. I just switched from Marine Corps to Navy after 10 years to keep from dying at 50, and mostly for the tricare and the free TS.
        deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
- phazmatis 12y ago
  Like most aspects of the military, they don't want/need experts. They want someone who knows which knob to turn until all the nixie tubes light up.
- chrisBob 12y ago
  The right answer probably isn't to hire computer science people as Soldiers. At least not many of them. It is probably better to just contract out the occasional job where this is needed. It is actually disappointing how few officers can do any programming. They are all college graduates, and I think a little but of computer science is pretty standard these days.
- logfromblammo 12y ago
  There are several reasons. Government pay scales are inflexible. A college graduate in CS would typically enter government service as an O-1 or GS-7, step 1. Both are less than $40k/year. Pay maxes out at around $150k/year after 18 years of unremarkable service. If you somehow manage to become a 4-star general of the cyberbrigades, in essence the CEO of Army Programming, Inc., you could possibly earn $180k per year, with no equity, but a nice pension plan. But you won't get even half that far. The mental processes involved in creating military procedures are fundamentally incompatible with those involved in software development. It is worth noting that everything Original Poster did to improve anything was completely against the rules, and was only permitted because it actually worked out in the field, and did not negatively impact anyone's duties. Government hiring is ridiculous. I once overheard a conversation about the possibility of converting contractors to employees. As it turns out, thanks to the preference ranking systems, the person most perfectly qualified to do the job, because that is exactly what he was currently already paid to do, with over 10 years of experience doing just that, would typically turn up no earlier than the third page of applicants. Every one of them would have to be individually considered and rejected before reaching the person already doing the job. Also, he would have to take a 50% cut in pay. Essentially, the government cannot compete in the open job market for any skill that makes a person worth hiring. They are therefore forced to train existing military personnel in software wherever necessary. And as expected, they train for that in a similar manner to the way they train everything else. The person is ordered to transfer to Fort Wherever for six weeks, to become a programmer. You end up with a person that thinks Waterfall is a good process, better programs have more lines of code, and that unit tests are written from an Excel template. You cannot solve a problem from the same state of mind that created it. The military is covered with leechlike contractor companies because they have been forbidden by law, by regulation, and by standing order from solving their own problems in an effective way. As always, the worst problem is bad management.
rpmartz 12y ago
A thousand times this. As an officer who served in infantry and intelligence officer positions-turned software engineer, there are countless time-consuming tasks that could be automated just like the author's example. And yes, MI is probably the place where it's most needed.
MrZongle2 12y ago
Plus that is where most of the smart Soldiers end up. Sometimes. :D I say this as a former 98C who has seen the dumbest people in MI units. But you're right about the need for programming support: during the Gulf War I discovered that the '386 (possibly '286) that we'd been using primarily as a Wing Commander Entertainment Console in one of our comms huts also had a copy of DBase III on it. Figured out how to create a table and query it, and applied it to my job. Didn't get a medal out of it, but it opened my eyes to the usefulness and power of databases.
WhoBeI 12y ago
You'd want to keep some of those people around though. Computers are great for detecting anomalies and known patterns but you need the human brain to invent new patterns to look for. Of course, sometimes a brain will invent a really weird pattern. You get agriculturally incompetent aliens, government employed blues brothers fans and all kinds of nonsense. I guess that's why intelligence gathering should be done in a group. More eyes results in less errors, right? :)

vivin 12y ago

The only reason I ended up in logistics is because my recruiter asked me what I was doing in college. I said "Computer Engineering" and he said "This has computers in it!". I was 19 years old and I had no idea about anything so I said "Sure, I'll do that!". We were also an artillery unit and so there weren't any MI positions AFAIK. By the time I was deployed I was working at Intel and I had already graduated with a bachelors in Computer Engineering. So that definitely helped!

suyash 12y ago

Why doesn't the Military hire more computer science graduates then?

fleitz 12y ago
Have you tried to hire programmers? Now imagine you're not offering stock, and are offering well below market rates, but at least they'll have meals made for them.
- sp332 12y ago
  Offer to do their laundry. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7817895 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7817895
  - fleitz 12y ago
    I think the army does that too, however, I'm not sure.
  - mpyne 12y ago
    What has kept me in (after joining to get better pay during college) was medical services for my child and (related to that) the potential to get one of the few remaining good pensions available in the U.S. In fact the latter thing is the only real incentive keeping many very talented members of the military (or at least the Navy) in technical fields at pay below the private sector.
    - frankydp 12y ago
      Agreed. I just switched from Marine Corps to Navy after 10 years to keep from dying at 50, and mostly for the tricare and the free TS.
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
phazmatis 12y ago
Like most aspects of the military, they don't want/need experts. They want someone who knows which knob to turn until all the nixie tubes light up.
chrisBob 12y ago
The right answer probably isn't to hire computer science people as Soldiers. At least not many of them. It is probably better to just contract out the occasional job where this is needed. It is actually disappointing how few officers can do any programming. They are all college graduates, and I think a little but of computer science is pretty standard these days.
logfromblammo 12y ago
There are several reasons. Government pay scales are inflexible. A college graduate in CS would typically enter government service as an O-1 or GS-7, step 1. Both are less than $40k/year. Pay maxes out at around $150k/year after 18 years of unremarkable service. If you somehow manage to become a 4-star general of the cyberbrigades, in essence the CEO of Army Programming, Inc., you could possibly earn $180k per year, with no equity, but a nice pension plan. But you won't get even half that far. The mental processes involved in creating military procedures are fundamentally incompatible with those involved in software development. It is worth noting that everything Original Poster did to improve anything was completely against the rules, and was only permitted because it actually worked out in the field, and did not negatively impact anyone's duties. Government hiring is ridiculous. I once overheard a conversation about the possibility of converting contractors to employees. As it turns out, thanks to the preference ranking systems, the person most perfectly qualified to do the job, because that is exactly what he was currently already paid to do, with over 10 years of experience doing just that, would typically turn up no earlier than the third page of applicants. Every one of them would have to be individually considered and rejected before reaching the person already doing the job. Also, he would have to take a 50% cut in pay. Essentially, the government cannot compete in the open job market for any skill that makes a person worth hiring. They are therefore forced to train existing military personnel in software wherever necessary. And as expected, they train for that in a similar manner to the way they train everything else. The person is ordered to transfer to Fort Wherever for six weeks, to become a programmer. You end up with a person that thinks Waterfall is a good process, better programs have more lines of code, and that unit tests are written from an Excel template. You cannot solve a problem from the same state of mind that created it. The military is covered with leechlike contractor companies because they have been forbidden by law, by regulation, and by standing order from solving their own problems in an effective way. As always, the worst problem is bad management.

rpmartz 12y ago

A thousand times this. As an officer who served in infantry and intelligence officer positions-turned software engineer, there are countless time-consuming tasks that could be automated just like the author's example. And yes, MI is probably the place where it's most needed.

MrZongle2 12y ago

Plus that is where most of the smart Soldiers end up. Sometimes. :D I say this as a former 98C who has seen the dumbest people in MI units. But you're right about the need for programming support: during the Gulf War I discovered that the '386 (possibly '286) that we'd been using primarily as a Wing Commander Entertainment Console in one of our comms huts also had a copy of DBase III on it. Figured out how to create a table and query it, and applied it to my job. Didn't get a medal out of it, but it opened my eyes to the usefulness and power of databases.

WhoBeI 12y ago

You'd want to keep some of those people around though. Computers are great for detecting anomalies and known patterns but you need the human brain to invent new patterns to look for. Of course, sometimes a brain will invent a really weird pattern. You get agriculturally incompetent aliens, government employed blues brothers fans and all kinds of nonsense. I guess that's why intelligence gathering should be done in a group. More eyes results in less errors, right? :)