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Even within YC, our own Summer 08 batch, there are several startups by non-Americans that have been very successful at building useful products, raising money,

Even within YC, our own Summer 08 batch, there are several startups by non-Americans that have been very successful at building useful products, raising money, and altogether creating value for the US economy. But those same startups have to jump through a million hoops just for the right to exist in our borders. So this effect is real. I don't claim to know to what extent our economy could be affected positively or negatively, but it is real.

rdtsc 17y ago
> But those same startups have to jump through a million hoops just for the right to exist in our borders. > I don't claim to know to what extent our economy could be affected positively or negatively, but it is real. The question then is, who are we trying to help here? Do we want to help the immigrants or the American economy? Unless, we can show how the hassle of immigrants trying to setup startup is seriously damaging our economy, then this starts to look more and more like we just want to provide some convenience for the immigrant workers. Of course, we should provide convenience, and should certainly not make it difficult on purpose, but that is not a top priority. We shouldn't be called xenophobes if we don't push this task to the priority of our things to do at the moment.
- kareemm 17y ago
  > Do we want to help the immigrants or the American economy? These aren't mutually exclusive. I was an immigrant from Canadian (first on TN, then H1), started a company with an American co-founder, provided opportunities for hundreds of Americans to make money doing what they do best - teach. American economy +1. I learned a ton, met some amazing people, got some good experience, and am confident that I could do it again. Immigrant +1. Problem is that US policy makes it difficult to do it again without an American co-founder. And this is what I don't understand: doesn't America want start risk-takers who leave their country to come and start businesses, grow the total pie, and earn a small slice of it? Isn't that how the country became so great?
  - studentx 17y ago
    So--is there an acutal way to do start a company without a US citizen as your co-founder? Just graduated from a US college on a regular foreign-student visa...
bilbo0s 17y ago
OK, just for full disclosure I am still trying to collect a large enough body of knowledge on immigration issues to make an informed opinion. That said, I'll let it be known that I am inclined to have immigration be open everywhere. Preferably with other places even being more attractive than the US. This way immigration contributes more to global development, and not just development in the US. Now with this out of the way, I have to say that if these companies you are talking about are 'raising money', then they have not created any value for the US economy. You are hoping that they will create value for the US economy. When the companies turn profitable, then they will be creating value. Until that point, they are being used to recycle currency, not to create wealth. Just a little nit pick on your post. The propensity to confuse 'raising money' with 'creating value' or 'creating wealth' is a pet peeve of mine.
petewarden 17y ago
Four of the ten Techstars Boulder 09 companies were founded by people born outside the US. Two of the companies are run by folks like me who spent close to a decade earning green cards at big firms, but the other two face significant barriers to basing themselves in the US, even with investment. Why does this matter? Even in the short term startups spend a lot of money here on services, and long-term they'll provide jobs for a lot of native workers.
studentx 17y ago
Would you happen to know if these non-Americans were mostly students using their post-graduation time for work (<= 29 months), and also working for US co-founders on paper? That seems like the only way it could be.

rdtsc 17y ago

> But those same startups have to jump through a million hoops just for the right to exist in our borders. > I don't claim to know to what extent our economy could be affected positively or negatively, but it is real. The question then is, who are we trying to help here? Do we want to help the immigrants or the American economy? Unless, we can show how the hassle of immigrants trying to setup startup is seriously damaging our economy, then this starts to look more and more like we just want to provide some convenience for the immigrant workers. Of course, we should provide convenience, and should certainly not make it difficult on purpose, but that is not a top priority. We shouldn't be called xenophobes if we don't push this task to the priority of our things to do at the moment.

kareemm 17y ago
> Do we want to help the immigrants or the American economy? These aren't mutually exclusive. I was an immigrant from Canadian (first on TN, then H1), started a company with an American co-founder, provided opportunities for hundreds of Americans to make money doing what they do best - teach. American economy +1. I learned a ton, met some amazing people, got some good experience, and am confident that I could do it again. Immigrant +1. Problem is that US policy makes it difficult to do it again without an American co-founder. And this is what I don't understand: doesn't America want start risk-takers who leave their country to come and start businesses, grow the total pie, and earn a small slice of it? Isn't that how the country became so great?
- studentx 17y ago
  So--is there an acutal way to do start a company without a US citizen as your co-founder? Just graduated from a US college on a regular foreign-student visa...

bilbo0s 17y ago

OK, just for full disclosure I am still trying to collect a large enough body of knowledge on immigration issues to make an informed opinion. That said, I'll let it be known that I am inclined to have immigration be open everywhere. Preferably with other places even being more attractive than the US. This way immigration contributes more to global development, and not just development in the US. Now with this out of the way, I have to say that if these companies you are talking about are 'raising money', then they have not created any value for the US economy. You are hoping that they will create value for the US economy. When the companies turn profitable, then they will be creating value. Until that point, they are being used to recycle currency, not to create wealth. Just a little nit pick on your post. The propensity to confuse 'raising money' with 'creating value' or 'creating wealth' is a pet peeve of mine.

petewarden 17y ago

Four of the ten Techstars Boulder 09 companies were founded by people born outside the US. Two of the companies are run by folks like me who spent close to a decade earning green cards at big firms, but the other two face significant barriers to basing themselves in the US, even with investment. Why does this matter? Even in the short term startups spend a lot of money here on services, and long-term they'll provide jobs for a lot of native workers.

studentx 17y ago

Would you happen to know if these non-Americans were mostly students using their post-graduation time for work (<= 29 months), and also working for US co-founders on paper? That seems like the only way it could be.