4 ms·

You mention that you'd have to take a big paycut to work in Aus, yet the author of the article complains that it is expensive in Australia because of high wages

by zizee 12y ago

You mention that you'd have to take a big paycut to work in Aus, yet the author of the article complains that it is expensive in Australia because of high wages. Which is correct?

jbarham 12y ago
As a software engineer who moved to Australia from Southern California 3.5 years ago, my experience is that development jobs in Australia pay well, but there are very few of them around. http://www.seek.com.au/ http://www.seek.com.au/ will give you an idea of what programming jobs are around. Apart from a handful of larger companies (Google, Atlassian, Campaign Monitor) there isn't much of a software industry in Australia, and even then it's essentially limited to Sydney and Melbourne. Most developers work in-house for banks, the government, web agencies etc. I've met some very capable developers, but many of them are working in roles below their potential. Longer term I fear that without a significant software industry, Australia will find it difficult to develop new talent and keep experienced top-flight developers from seeking greener pastures overseas. Personally I believe the high-cost issue will largely solve itself as the mining boom slows and the property bubble pops...
px1999 12y ago
Another Australian currently in North America here (though I still do business in Australia). Low-to-midrange talent is more expensive (developers start with a higher salary in Aus); though there's likely more "top end" stuff in the US/Canada (What's the average SF developer salary these days?) Median salaries are higher, but the standard deviation is lower. Part of this is because the effective minimum wage in Australia is $17/hr. (Benefits are likely more expensive in Aus than the US/Canada as well, particularly if you want to differentiate on giving above average holiday leave etc). I believe that the article misrepresents facts to make a point that may or may not be there - the type of talent that you'd ideally want to attract (especially as an early-mid stage startup) is likely pretty close in cost to the same talent outside Australia. I'd think that there are more pressing issues (such as the tolerance/approach to failure, or differences in interest rates, which lead incubators to asking for much more equity for less money)...
zmmmmm 12y ago
It depends what league you are in. The top end of salaries in Australia is about $120-$140k no matter how great you are. My impression is that in the right market and with the right skills you can go way higher than that in the US. At lower levels of specialty / skill I think they are comparable. But the work in Australia is mostly incredibly tedious - back end systems for banks, insurance companies, etc. etc.
jlawer 12y ago
I am pretty sure you can hire most Aussies cheaper then you can compared to Silicon Valley or New York, but I consider both of those places the exception to the rule, and someone on a good wage there will tend to take a pay cut to go anywhere. Look at www.seek.com.au which is pretty much the premiere jobs site for Australia for prices Senior Dev Roles in Sydney and Melbourne will get ~ $120k AUD per year with Brisbane and other state capitals generally dropping from there. Mid Level in Brisbane (3rd largest city) is generally $65k AUD. Orgs tend to be smaller here, so there are less managers / director / CTO roles then I have seen in the US. As such you can find it more difficult to climb the ladder. On top of salary though there are a few extra expenses. Employer super is ~ 9% (going up to 12% in the future) on top of salary. States may (or may not) have payroll tax, and you likely also have to pay for things like WorkCover (which is an insurance scheme for injuries sustained at work). On the other hand most companies don't offer health insurance, etc as perks.
- jbarham 12y ago
  > On the other hand most companies don't offer health insurance, etc as perks IMHO as someone who's worked in the US and now lives in Australia, that's a good thing! I'd argue that one of the major causes of the current health insurance fiasco in the US is the history behind health insurance being offered as a perk for good jobs. My health insurance (medicare & private) in Australia is completely separate from my employer and my employment status, and I very much like it that way.
  - semerda 12y ago
    Exactly. That is one thing I hate in the US. You leave a company and they cut all your health benefits. Left on the street. And when you do find coverage you end up paying nearly 1K per month for mediocre coverage. In comparison in Australia I remember paying $100 per month (5 years ago) for private coverage on top of medicare (free). In the US at my previous gig, I remember hearing older folks with health issues afraid to get made redundant because they would loose their health coverage. None of those fears exist in Australia.

by zizee 12y ago

You mention that you'd have to take a big paycut to work in Aus, yet the author of the article complains that it is expensive in Australia because of high wages. Which is correct?

jbarham 12y ago

As a software engineer who moved to Australia from Southern California 3.5 years ago, my experience is that development jobs in Australia pay well, but there are very few of them around. http://www.seek.com.au/ http://www.seek.com.au/ will give you an idea of what programming jobs are around. Apart from a handful of larger companies (Google, Atlassian, Campaign Monitor) there isn't much of a software industry in Australia, and even then it's essentially limited to Sydney and Melbourne. Most developers work in-house for banks, the government, web agencies etc. I've met some very capable developers, but many of them are working in roles below their potential. Longer term I fear that without a significant software industry, Australia will find it difficult to develop new talent and keep experienced top-flight developers from seeking greener pastures overseas. Personally I believe the high-cost issue will largely solve itself as the mining boom slows and the property bubble pops...

px1999 12y ago

Another Australian currently in North America here (though I still do business in Australia). Low-to-midrange talent is more expensive (developers start with a higher salary in Aus); though there's likely more "top end" stuff in the US/Canada (What's the average SF developer salary these days?) Median salaries are higher, but the standard deviation is lower. Part of this is because the effective minimum wage in Australia is $17/hr. (Benefits are likely more expensive in Aus than the US/Canada as well, particularly if you want to differentiate on giving above average holiday leave etc). I believe that the article misrepresents facts to make a point that may or may not be there - the type of talent that you'd ideally want to attract (especially as an early-mid stage startup) is likely pretty close in cost to the same talent outside Australia. I'd think that there are more pressing issues (such as the tolerance/approach to failure, or differences in interest rates, which lead incubators to asking for much more equity for less money)...

zmmmmm 12y ago

It depends what league you are in. The top end of salaries in Australia is about $120-$140k no matter how great you are. My impression is that in the right market and with the right skills you can go way higher than that in the US. At lower levels of specialty / skill I think they are comparable. But the work in Australia is mostly incredibly tedious - back end systems for banks, insurance companies, etc. etc.

jlawer 12y ago

I am pretty sure you can hire most Aussies cheaper then you can compared to Silicon Valley or New York, but I consider both of those places the exception to the rule, and someone on a good wage there will tend to take a pay cut to go anywhere. Look at www.seek.com.au which is pretty much the premiere jobs site for Australia for prices Senior Dev Roles in Sydney and Melbourne will get ~ $120k AUD per year with Brisbane and other state capitals generally dropping from there. Mid Level in Brisbane (3rd largest city) is generally $65k AUD. Orgs tend to be smaller here, so there are less managers / director / CTO roles then I have seen in the US. As such you can find it more difficult to climb the ladder. On top of salary though there are a few extra expenses. Employer super is ~ 9% (going up to 12% in the future) on top of salary. States may (or may not) have payroll tax, and you likely also have to pay for things like WorkCover (which is an insurance scheme for injuries sustained at work). On the other hand most companies don't offer health insurance, etc as perks.

jbarham 12y ago
> On the other hand most companies don't offer health insurance, etc as perks IMHO as someone who's worked in the US and now lives in Australia, that's a good thing! I'd argue that one of the major causes of the current health insurance fiasco in the US is the history behind health insurance being offered as a perk for good jobs. My health insurance (medicare & private) in Australia is completely separate from my employer and my employment status, and I very much like it that way.
- semerda 12y ago
  Exactly. That is one thing I hate in the US. You leave a company and they cut all your health benefits. Left on the street. And when you do find coverage you end up paying nearly 1K per month for mediocre coverage. In comparison in Australia I remember paying $100 per month (5 years ago) for private coverage on top of medicare (free). In the US at my previous gig, I remember hearing older folks with health issues afraid to get made redundant because they would loose their health coverage. None of those fears exist in Australia.