4 ms·

You know, I was about to type a kind of snarky reply along the lines of "Ukraine is still in Europe, no?" and then I realized I had to pick the country in Europ

by wdewind 12y ago

You know, I was about to type a kind of snarky reply along the lines of "Ukraine is still in Europe, no?" and then I realized I had to pick the country in Europe that is literally in the midst of a civil war to get to a comparable situation. Sigh.

arethuza 12y ago
Indeed, I was also contemplating some kind of dismissive reply then I remembered I am reading an excellent book about the Saville Inquiry into Bloody Sunday (which I am old enough to just remember happening) and decided not to make that kind of comment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_%281972%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_%281972%29 [Yes, it was a long time ago, but I don't think anything about our society here in the UK has changed to such an extent that would make this fundamentally impossible.]
- glogla 12y ago
  Yes, it doesn't seem that much has changed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menezes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menez...
  - arethuza 12y ago
    Thankfully it didn't take 30 years to admit that killing Jean Charles de Menezes was a mistake. Actually, on the that subject I'm not particularly worried about a general level of violence by police in the UK. However, I am concerned that we could see something like the Troubles again if we continue to treat immigrant populations as scapegoats for all the ills in our society.
- aestra 12y ago
  The Srebrenica massacre was less than 20 years ago.
- mercurial 12y ago
  I'll raise you this [1], 11 years before Bloody Sunday. 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961
  - arethuza 12y ago
    That was dreadful and I feel slightly ashamed for never having heard of it! The response of the policeman who said: "What happened on 17 October 1961 and in the following days against the peaceful demonstrators, on which no weapons were found, morally forces us to bring our testimony and to alert public opinion... All guilty people must be punished. The punishment must be extended to all of the responsible people, those who give orders, those who feign of letting it happen, whatever their high office may be.." reminds me of the coroner at the inquest for the Bloody Sunday victims, himself a former Army officer: "They were shooting innocent people. These people may have been taking part in a march that was banned but that does not justify the troops coming in and firing live rounds indiscriminately. I would say without hesitation that it was sheer, unadulterated murder. It was murder."
    - mercurial 12y ago
      Oh, and this isn't much at all compared to what was going on in Algeria at the same time: large-scale torture (on both sides), bombings, summary executions... Fun times. Fortunately, democratic nations can't have "fun" on quite the same scale nowadays, though to be sure, the fellows enjoying US hospitality at Bagram airfield must have gotten their own "fun".
      - arethuza 12y ago
        I recently watched The Battle for Algiers - what an incredible movie!
        mercurial 12y ago
        Good enough that it was used as an instruction manual, unfortunately. And several of the torturers would go on to teach various right-wing regimes how to extract information from prisoners.
- dingaling 12y ago
  That was an exceptional episode in a period when NI was basically in a state of civil breakdown. I don't think you can extrapolate from that one datum. It was an unfortunate coincidence at a point in time of aggressive soldiers, civil disobedience, no-go-areas and the presence of armed PIRA units. For the next 30 years of 'troubles' there was never an action like that again by regular army forces, despite constant provocation and attacks against them. The SWAT / armed police raids, on the other hand, are occurring every day in the USA.
  - arethuza 12y ago
    I agree, I don't think that they are directly comparable - I was merely commenting on the fact that it is easy for us Europeans to make snide comments about the level of armed violence in the US when we actually have occasional outbursts of extreme levels of violence here, even if the overall level is much lower.
mikeash 12y ago
Belarus would probably qualify too, not that "repressive dictatorship" is a whole lot better for the comparison than "civil war". Anyway, us Americans manage to normally live our lives because stuff like this is rare. Remember: if you see it on the news, it is not common pretty much by definition. I'm far more worried about being run over by a truck or my house burning down than I am about being shot by the police. That's not to say that it's not a problem. This is a huge problem that needs fixing, like, now. But it doesn't directly affect my ability to live life without fear.
- wdewind 12y ago
  Flash banging children nearly to death is fortunately rare. Unfortunately no-knock warrants are less so: 50,000 in 2005 and rising. In a community that is hugely concerned with virtual privacy rights re: the NSA, we don't seem to spend much time caring about physical privacy rights, re: poor people having their houses broken into by state sponsored armed forces.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

by wdewind 12y ago

arethuza 12y ago

Indeed, I was also contemplating some kind of dismissive reply then I remembered I am reading an excellent book about the Saville Inquiry into Bloody Sunday (which I am old enough to just remember happening) and decided not to make that kind of comment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_%281972%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_%281972%29 [Yes, it was a long time ago, but I don't think anything about our society here in the UK has changed to such an extent that would make this fundamentally impossible.]

glogla 12y ago
Yes, it doesn't seem that much has changed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menezes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menez...
- arethuza 12y ago
  Thankfully it didn't take 30 years to admit that killing Jean Charles de Menezes was a mistake. Actually, on the that subject I'm not particularly worried about a general level of violence by police in the UK. However, I am concerned that we could see something like the Troubles again if we continue to treat immigrant populations as scapegoats for all the ills in our society.
aestra 12y ago
The Srebrenica massacre was less than 20 years ago.
mercurial 12y ago
I'll raise you this [1], 11 years before Bloody Sunday. 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961
- arethuza 12y ago
  That was dreadful and I feel slightly ashamed for never having heard of it! The response of the policeman who said: "What happened on 17 October 1961 and in the following days against the peaceful demonstrators, on which no weapons were found, morally forces us to bring our testimony and to alert public opinion... All guilty people must be punished. The punishment must be extended to all of the responsible people, those who give orders, those who feign of letting it happen, whatever their high office may be.." reminds me of the coroner at the inquest for the Bloody Sunday victims, himself a former Army officer: "They were shooting innocent people. These people may have been taking part in a march that was banned but that does not justify the troops coming in and firing live rounds indiscriminately. I would say without hesitation that it was sheer, unadulterated murder. It was murder."
  - mercurial 12y ago
    Oh, and this isn't much at all compared to what was going on in Algeria at the same time: large-scale torture (on both sides), bombings, summary executions... Fun times. Fortunately, democratic nations can't have "fun" on quite the same scale nowadays, though to be sure, the fellows enjoying US hospitality at Bagram airfield must have gotten their own "fun".
    - arethuza 12y ago
      I recently watched The Battle for Algiers - what an incredible movie!
      - mercurial 12y ago
        Good enough that it was used as an instruction manual, unfortunately. And several of the torturers would go on to teach various right-wing regimes how to extract information from prisoners.
dingaling 12y ago
That was an exceptional episode in a period when NI was basically in a state of civil breakdown. I don't think you can extrapolate from that one datum. It was an unfortunate coincidence at a point in time of aggressive soldiers, civil disobedience, no-go-areas and the presence of armed PIRA units. For the next 30 years of 'troubles' there was never an action like that again by regular army forces, despite constant provocation and attacks against them. The SWAT / armed police raids, on the other hand, are occurring every day in the USA.
- arethuza 12y ago
  I agree, I don't think that they are directly comparable - I was merely commenting on the fact that it is easy for us Europeans to make snide comments about the level of armed violence in the US when we actually have occasional outbursts of extreme levels of violence here, even if the overall level is much lower.

mikeash 12y ago

Belarus would probably qualify too, not that "repressive dictatorship" is a whole lot better for the comparison than "civil war". Anyway, us Americans manage to normally live our lives because stuff like this is rare. Remember: if you see it on the news, it is not common pretty much by definition. I'm far more worried about being run over by a truck or my house burning down than I am about being shot by the police. That's not to say that it's not a problem. This is a huge problem that needs fixing, like, now. But it doesn't directly affect my ability to live life without fear.

wdewind 12y ago
Flash banging children nearly to death is fortunately rare. Unfortunately no-knock warrants are less so: 50,000 in 2005 and rising. In a community that is hugely concerned with virtual privacy rights re: the NSA, we don't seem to spend much time caring about physical privacy rights, re: poor people having their houses broken into by state sponsored armed forces.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]