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When I read stuff like this, I'm really happy that I am not living in the US. It sounds so crazy to a European person, I can't really imagine how Americans mana

by iagooar 12y ago

When I read stuff like this, I'm really happy that I am not living in the US. It sounds so crazy to a European person, I can't really imagine how Americans manage to normally live their lives.

silverbax88 12y ago
This sounds crazy to Americans, too. This isn't happening everywhere and the only accounts are those like this online.
- tinkerrr 12y ago
  No, this is happening in most parts of the country. See http://www.cato.org/raidmap http://www.cato.org/raidmap (more "neutral" source welcome, if someone has another information source/raw data link).
  - dllthomas 12y ago
    Great link, but worth noting the default view shows raids from the past 30 years.
  - stonemetal 12y ago
    2 in 2014, 0 in 2012, 6 in 2011. Don't know what happened to their 2013 data but ~8 in three or four years shows how rare an event it is.
    - dTal 12y ago
      There were not 0 in 2012: http://www.infowars.com/man-dies-in-police-raid-on-wrong-house/ http://www.infowars.com/man-dies-in-police-raid-on-wrong-hou... (Apologies for infowars, but the source - ABC News - inexplicably omits the date) The past 4 years seem anomalous - compare the previous four years: 2010 - 19 2009 - 12 2008 - 22 2007 - 16 Much as I'd like to think Obama has single-handedly reformed all of the police departments in the US, I think it rather more likely there's something wrong with the data.
  - jdcarter 12y ago
    I was thinking that "no-knock" raids happened very little around my area (Denver) but this map proved me wrong. While not exactly commonplace, I found several instances of raids in/around Denver based on nothing but a single informant. Some of the news stories were just like the OP--police bust into wrong place and kill someone completely innocent.
  - freehunter 12y ago
    In 2014 there have been two. In 2012, none. 2013 isn't even listed as an option. Deaths from cars hitting wildlife happens all around the country but I wouldn't say that's representative of the state of the country, nor do most of the citizens live in fear of this happening. These raids are a problem, yes, but in a thread with a European commenting that they think this represents America, your link doesn't really support the argument that this is true.
    - ssmoot 12y ago
      There was no death in this case (yet). The previous comment was referring to the raids in general (at least how I read it). And those are actually not all that uncommon.
      - freehunter 12y ago
        Yeah I got that. But the link doesn't show it's all that common either. Basically none since 2011, and America is a big country. A handful a year across 330 million people is too many, but not nearly as common as the European and my parent are making it out to be.
        ssmoot 12y ago
        The raids are very common. Just because people don't die very often doesn't mean they're reasonable. Pointing rifles at innocent people practically indiscriminately ("wrong place, wrong time, now STFU citizen"), not letting parents attend to their scared and/or wounded children... there's just no justification for that. It doesn't make it safer for suspects. It doesn't make it safer for police. It's certainly not safer for bystanders. I'm not the sort to evoke "our fore-fathers", but I seriously doubt a militarized police force who could raid citizen's homes without notice is something they would approve of.
        freehunter 12y ago
        Are you arguing against my point, or against someone else? Your first sentence could be a reply to me, but you're making a claim that contradicts the evidence that I'm arguing against, and you present no new evidence. Just saying "it's common" doesn't make it so. The rest of your post has nothing to do with anything I've said, so I will assume you meant to reply to someone else.
  - dTal 12y ago
    Something seems wrong with the data for the past 4 years. 0 is certainly incorrect for 2012 and the previous 4 years average 17 raids/year.
- jsmthrowaway 12y ago
  A college acquaintance was tackled by a SWAT officer, still blinded from looking directly in surprise at the flash bang that had come through his window, bound with a zip tie, then "accidentally" kicked in the face as they tore his entire apartment from floor to ceiling looking for the cocaine being sold. When they didn't find anything in any room, they started tearing open his bedroom walls with an axe, sure he was hiding the pounds of cocaine somewhere. Turns out they had the address of the apartment correct minus the street. He was at 3033 X, they wanted 3033 Y. They realized this about a half hour into the raid and said "oops, sorry," and simply packed up and left. His story is not in that map. I looked. Another time, I left my apartment to walk to the convenience store across the street and was immediately met with six Springfield (OR) Police officers with weapons drawn and pointed directly at my center mass. I was ordered to kneel, not move, and provide identification, conflicting orders with which I was afraid to comply due to itchy triggers in my face; they ended up pushing my face into the sidewalk and taking the identification themselves. They thought I was a car thief they had been chasing. The fun part of the second story is that they found my press credentials in my wallet first (this was when I worked in television) and a lieutenant magically appeared, apologized extensively, and offered me a bottle of water. She also called a bus to come treat the laceration on my forehead, and gave me her card and said if I had any problems, call her first, and we needn't make a big deal out of this, right? Just a misunderstanding, no big deal. Police get it wrong a lot. Just because it's not near you doesn't mean it's not happening, believe me.
  - aestra 12y ago
    >Another time, I left my apartment to walk to the convenience store across the street once and was immediately met with six Springfield (OR) Police officers with weapons drawn, pointed directly at my center mass. I was ordered to kneel, not move, and provide identification, conflicting orders with which I was afraid to comply due to itchy triggers in my face; they ended up pushing my face into the sidewalk and taking the identification themselves. They thought I was a car thief they had been chasing. This happens with surprising frequency from what I hear. I know of a couple people with almost the same story.
wdewind 12y ago
You know, I was about to type a kind of snarky reply along the lines of "Ukraine is still in Europe, no?" and then I realized I had to pick the country in Europe that is literally in the midst of a civil war to get to a comparable situation. Sigh.
- arethuza 12y ago
  Indeed, I was also contemplating some kind of dismissive reply then I remembered I am reading an excellent book about the Saville Inquiry into Bloody Sunday (which I am old enough to just remember happening) and decided not to make that kind of comment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_%281972%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_%281972%29 [Yes, it was a long time ago, but I don't think anything about our society here in the UK has changed to such an extent that would make this fundamentally impossible.]
  - glogla 12y ago
    Yes, it doesn't seem that much has changed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menezes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menez...
    - arethuza 12y ago
      Thankfully it didn't take 30 years to admit that killing Jean Charles de Menezes was a mistake. Actually, on the that subject I'm not particularly worried about a general level of violence by police in the UK. However, I am concerned that we could see something like the Troubles again if we continue to treat immigrant populations as scapegoats for all the ills in our society.
  - aestra 12y ago
    The Srebrenica massacre was less than 20 years ago.
  - mercurial 12y ago
    I'll raise you this [1], 11 years before Bloody Sunday. 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961
cgh 12y ago
The US is a big place (note: I'm not American either). Keep in mind that your comment is similar to a non-European reading about far-right violence and recent EU parliament election success and thinking, "When I read stuff like this, I'm really happy I am not living in Europe. It sounds so crazy to a [Canadian|Australian|etc.] person."
- vdaniuk 12y ago
  Should we factor in the largest prison population per capita in the world and transfer of surplus military gear to police to nullify the 'big place' factor?
  - simplemath 12y ago
    Yes. The "we're big, these events are outliers" meme is patently false.
    - cgh 12y ago
      My point was most Americans have no experience with these sorts of events despite their apparent pervasiveness, just as most Europeans have little experience with far-right parties despite their recent successes.
      - homulilly 12y ago
        Most financially well off, white Americans have no experience, I suspect that's also the demographic of most people on HN. I have friends who come from a poorer background than me and most of them have either been subject to police abuse themselves, or have friends/family who has been abused or even killed by police.
- tomp 12y ago
  What far right violence? Is there anything happening on a significant scale? What do you mean by "recent EU parliament election success"?
tlrobinson 12y ago
"I can't really imagine how Americans manage to normally live their lives." This is truly awful, but the vast majority of Americans will never be subject to a SWAT raid or anything like it (especially if they're not involved in illegal activity). Or terrorist attacks. Or mass shootings. Or etc etc. People are notoriously bad at estimating the probability rare but extreme events will happen to them. Of course, that doesn't make this ok. I personally believe SWAT team usage should be restricted to hostage, active shooter, and similar situations.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
  - tlrobinson 12y ago
    That's how probabilities work.
- sliverstorm 12y ago
  I would even say "vast majority" is an understatement.
- simplemath 12y ago
  Then why throw up your pitiful strawman in the first place?
- ddeck 12y ago
  >but the vast majority of Americans will never be subject to a SWAT raid or anything like it (especially if they're not involved in illegal activity). Or terrorist attacks. Or mass shootings. Or etc etc. While that's true, it's somewhat beside the point. US citizens are far more likely to be a on the receiving end of a SWAT raid or a victim of murder than citizens of other countries at a comparable level of development. The fact that it's only a minority of the population doesn't mean there isn't a serious issue. To put some numbers on it, the US annual murder rate is ~5 people per 100k population. Yes, it's small, but compare that to 1.0 in the UK, 1.1 in Australia, 1.6 in Canada (0.4 in my country), and clearly it's a more dangerous place. There are estimated to be ~50-80k US SWAT raids per year annually. Of those in Maryland for example: - half are for non-violent "part-II" crimes - a third resulted in no arrests - >1% resulted in an officer's weapon being fired I didn't know those SWAT stats prior to today and I find them shocking. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona... http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/02/17/shedding-light-on-the-use-of-swat-teams/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/02/17/s...
simplemath 12y ago
It sounds crazy because it is.
seanmccann 12y ago
I live in the US and have never had to deal with this and live a normal life. I am by no means defending this, in fact I think it's disgusting and awful, but it's not happening on every single street in the county. Yet.
- jqm 12y ago
  I think this type of thing is happening much more than people think.
- vdaniuk 12y ago
  And again, US has the largest per capita number of prisoners in the whole 190 countries. Most of these prisoners are in prison for drug-related charges. Think about that. Yes, SWAT attacks are not happening on every single street, but government destroying lives seems to happen on most streets.
- nogridbag 12y ago
  I recently made the mistake of calling the local police when I heard some ongoing disturbance outside of my apartment window around 3am. I told them it's probably nothing, but they may want to look into it. I thought they may send out one car to drive by and see if everything's OK. I was shocked what I saw next and I was thinking to myself "What have I done?!". I'm in a high-rise and have a good view of the city. It looked like they sent the entire police force. Police vehicles were flying in from every angle, SUVs jumping over curbs, driving through lawns, etc. It looked like a scene from the original Die Hard. I was nervous they would trace down my cell # if it turned out to be nothing.
- hughw 12y ago
  It mostly happens to a different demographic than the one that reads HN.
- hackuser 12y ago
  > I live in the US and have never had to deal with this and live a normal life. I am by no means defending this, in fact I think it's disgusting and awful, but it's not happening on every single street in the county. Yet. I think that's how they get away with it politically. For the politically powerful and even most of the middle class, it's only something they see on the news occasionally.
baddox 12y ago
It might help you understand why a significant portion of Americans are reluctant to allow the government to place further restrictions on firearm ownership.
conductr 12y ago
America is a weird place. If we collectively felt it was out of control or being abused we would fight back through law or force if it got to that point. We're generally just glad to have those options. I think this is a topic where the legal fight is ramping up. These stories are becoming too common and though currently "legal" it just reeks of negligence.
- scurvyscott 12y ago
  I'm of the unfortunate opinion that Americans are too pacified and complacent to actually step up and do anything against the government. I would love to see people reacting with force and violence at a system that is so oppressive and belligerent.
refurb 12y ago
Go onto youtube and search for "german police beating". There are hours of footage of German police kicking the crap out of protesters (punches to the face, etc). The German police are notorious for being very physical.
- anon4 12y ago
  Punches to the face are better than holes in the chest. If I had to pick from "will get punched in the face with 90% certainty" or "will get a hole in the chest with 0.01% certainty", I'd pick the first one. Heck, I'd punch myself in the face once for good measure, too.
  - refurb 12y ago
    I would as well, but I think my example shows that public tolerance of police behavior varies among countries. German would be horrified with US cops shooting random civilians and Americans are horrified by German police beating suspects for relatively minor infractions.
- iagooar 12y ago
  That's not a good comparison, show me a video of German police raiding a house while using extreme violence. Not that I'm a big fan of the police, but in this case it's comparing apples to oranges.
joshuapants 12y ago
How about literal military police (that enforce civilian laws) rather than militarized civilian police? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carabinieri http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carabinieri http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Gendarmerie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Gendarmerie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rijkswacht http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rijkswacht (until 2001) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardia_Civil http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardia_Civil

by iagooar 12y ago

When I read stuff like this, I'm really happy that I am not living in the US. It sounds so crazy to a European person, I can't really imagine how Americans manage to normally live their lives.

silverbax88 12y ago

This sounds crazy to Americans, too. This isn't happening everywhere and the only accounts are those like this online.

tinkerrr 12y ago
No, this is happening in most parts of the country. See http://www.cato.org/raidmap http://www.cato.org/raidmap (more "neutral" source welcome, if someone has another information source/raw data link).
- dllthomas 12y ago
  Great link, but worth noting the default view shows raids from the past 30 years.
- stonemetal 12y ago
  2 in 2014, 0 in 2012, 6 in 2011. Don't know what happened to their 2013 data but ~8 in three or four years shows how rare an event it is.
  - dTal 12y ago
    There were not 0 in 2012: http://www.infowars.com/man-dies-in-police-raid-on-wrong-house/ http://www.infowars.com/man-dies-in-police-raid-on-wrong-hou... (Apologies for infowars, but the source - ABC News - inexplicably omits the date) The past 4 years seem anomalous - compare the previous four years: 2010 - 19 2009 - 12 2008 - 22 2007 - 16 Much as I'd like to think Obama has single-handedly reformed all of the police departments in the US, I think it rather more likely there's something wrong with the data.
- jdcarter 12y ago
  I was thinking that "no-knock" raids happened very little around my area (Denver) but this map proved me wrong. While not exactly commonplace, I found several instances of raids in/around Denver based on nothing but a single informant. Some of the news stories were just like the OP--police bust into wrong place and kill someone completely innocent.
- freehunter 12y ago
  In 2014 there have been two. In 2012, none. 2013 isn't even listed as an option. Deaths from cars hitting wildlife happens all around the country but I wouldn't say that's representative of the state of the country, nor do most of the citizens live in fear of this happening. These raids are a problem, yes, but in a thread with a European commenting that they think this represents America, your link doesn't really support the argument that this is true.
  - ssmoot 12y ago
    There was no death in this case (yet). The previous comment was referring to the raids in general (at least how I read it). And those are actually not all that uncommon.
    - freehunter 12y ago
      Yeah I got that. But the link doesn't show it's all that common either. Basically none since 2011, and America is a big country. A handful a year across 330 million people is too many, but not nearly as common as the European and my parent are making it out to be.
      - ssmoot 12y ago
        The raids are very common. Just because people don't die very often doesn't mean they're reasonable. Pointing rifles at innocent people practically indiscriminately ("wrong place, wrong time, now STFU citizen"), not letting parents attend to their scared and/or wounded children... there's just no justification for that. It doesn't make it safer for suspects. It doesn't make it safer for police. It's certainly not safer for bystanders. I'm not the sort to evoke "our fore-fathers", but I seriously doubt a militarized police force who could raid citizen's homes without notice is something they would approve of.
        freehunter 12y ago
        Are you arguing against my point, or against someone else? Your first sentence could be a reply to me, but you're making a claim that contradicts the evidence that I'm arguing against, and you present no new evidence. Just saying "it's common" doesn't make it so. The rest of your post has nothing to do with anything I've said, so I will assume you meant to reply to someone else.
- dTal 12y ago
  Something seems wrong with the data for the past 4 years. 0 is certainly incorrect for 2012 and the previous 4 years average 17 raids/year.
jsmthrowaway 12y ago
A college acquaintance was tackled by a SWAT officer, still blinded from looking directly in surprise at the flash bang that had come through his window, bound with a zip tie, then "accidentally" kicked in the face as they tore his entire apartment from floor to ceiling looking for the cocaine being sold. When they didn't find anything in any room, they started tearing open his bedroom walls with an axe, sure he was hiding the pounds of cocaine somewhere. Turns out they had the address of the apartment correct minus the street. He was at 3033 X, they wanted 3033 Y. They realized this about a half hour into the raid and said "oops, sorry," and simply packed up and left. His story is not in that map. I looked. Another time, I left my apartment to walk to the convenience store across the street and was immediately met with six Springfield (OR) Police officers with weapons drawn and pointed directly at my center mass. I was ordered to kneel, not move, and provide identification, conflicting orders with which I was afraid to comply due to itchy triggers in my face; they ended up pushing my face into the sidewalk and taking the identification themselves. They thought I was a car thief they had been chasing. The fun part of the second story is that they found my press credentials in my wallet first (this was when I worked in television) and a lieutenant magically appeared, apologized extensively, and offered me a bottle of water. She also called a bus to come treat the laceration on my forehead, and gave me her card and said if I had any problems, call her first, and we needn't make a big deal out of this, right? Just a misunderstanding, no big deal. Police get it wrong a lot. Just because it's not near you doesn't mean it's not happening, believe me.
- aestra 12y ago
  >Another time, I left my apartment to walk to the convenience store across the street once and was immediately met with six Springfield (OR) Police officers with weapons drawn, pointed directly at my center mass. I was ordered to kneel, not move, and provide identification, conflicting orders with which I was afraid to comply due to itchy triggers in my face; they ended up pushing my face into the sidewalk and taking the identification themselves. They thought I was a car thief they had been chasing. This happens with surprising frequency from what I hear. I know of a couple people with almost the same story.

wdewind 12y ago

You know, I was about to type a kind of snarky reply along the lines of "Ukraine is still in Europe, no?" and then I realized I had to pick the country in Europe that is literally in the midst of a civil war to get to a comparable situation. Sigh.

arethuza 12y ago
Indeed, I was also contemplating some kind of dismissive reply then I remembered I am reading an excellent book about the Saville Inquiry into Bloody Sunday (which I am old enough to just remember happening) and decided not to make that kind of comment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_%281972%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_%281972%29 [Yes, it was a long time ago, but I don't think anything about our society here in the UK has changed to such an extent that would make this fundamentally impossible.]
- glogla 12y ago
  Yes, it doesn't seem that much has changed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menezes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menez...
  - arethuza 12y ago
    Thankfully it didn't take 30 years to admit that killing Jean Charles de Menezes was a mistake. Actually, on the that subject I'm not particularly worried about a general level of violence by police in the UK. However, I am concerned that we could see something like the Troubles again if we continue to treat immigrant populations as scapegoats for all the ills in our society.
- aestra 12y ago
  The Srebrenica massacre was less than 20 years ago.
- mercurial 12y ago
  I'll raise you this [1], 11 years before Bloody Sunday. 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961

cgh 12y ago

The US is a big place (note: I'm not American either). Keep in mind that your comment is similar to a non-European reading about far-right violence and recent EU parliament election success and thinking, "When I read stuff like this, I'm really happy I am not living in Europe. It sounds so crazy to a [Canadian|Australian|etc.] person."

vdaniuk 12y ago
Should we factor in the largest prison population per capita in the world and transfer of surplus military gear to police to nullify the 'big place' factor?
- simplemath 12y ago
  Yes. The "we're big, these events are outliers" meme is patently false.
  - cgh 12y ago
    My point was most Americans have no experience with these sorts of events despite their apparent pervasiveness, just as most Europeans have little experience with far-right parties despite their recent successes.
    - homulilly 12y ago
      Most financially well off, white Americans have no experience, I suspect that's also the demographic of most people on HN. I have friends who come from a poorer background than me and most of them have either been subject to police abuse themselves, or have friends/family who has been abused or even killed by police.
tomp 12y ago
What far right violence? Is there anything happening on a significant scale? What do you mean by "recent EU parliament election success"?

tlrobinson 12y ago

"I can't really imagine how Americans manage to normally live their lives." This is truly awful, but the vast majority of Americans will never be subject to a SWAT raid or anything like it (especially if they're not involved in illegal activity). Or terrorist attacks. Or mass shootings. Or etc etc. People are notoriously bad at estimating the probability rare but extreme events will happen to them. Of course, that doesn't make this ok. I personally believe SWAT team usage should be restricted to hostage, active shooter, and similar situations.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
- tlrobinson 12y ago
  That's how probabilities work.
sliverstorm 12y ago
I would even say "vast majority" is an understatement.
simplemath 12y ago
Then why throw up your pitiful strawman in the first place?
ddeck 12y ago
>but the vast majority of Americans will never be subject to a SWAT raid or anything like it (especially if they're not involved in illegal activity). Or terrorist attacks. Or mass shootings. Or etc etc. While that's true, it's somewhat beside the point. US citizens are far more likely to be a on the receiving end of a SWAT raid or a victim of murder than citizens of other countries at a comparable level of development. The fact that it's only a minority of the population doesn't mean there isn't a serious issue. To put some numbers on it, the US annual murder rate is ~5 people per 100k population. Yes, it's small, but compare that to 1.0 in the UK, 1.1 in Australia, 1.6 in Canada (0.4 in my country), and clearly it's a more dangerous place. There are estimated to be ~50-80k US SWAT raids per year annually. Of those in Maryland for example: - half are for non-violent "part-II" crimes - a third resulted in no arrests - >1% resulted in an officer's weapon being fired I didn't know those SWAT stats prior to today and I find them shocking. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona... http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/02/17/shedding-light-on-the-use-of-swat-teams/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/02/17/s...

simplemath 12y ago

It sounds crazy because it is.

seanmccann 12y ago

I live in the US and have never had to deal with this and live a normal life. I am by no means defending this, in fact I think it's disgusting and awful, but it's not happening on every single street in the county. Yet.

jqm 12y ago
I think this type of thing is happening much more than people think.
vdaniuk 12y ago
And again, US has the largest per capita number of prisoners in the whole 190 countries. Most of these prisoners are in prison for drug-related charges. Think about that. Yes, SWAT attacks are not happening on every single street, but government destroying lives seems to happen on most streets.
nogridbag 12y ago
I recently made the mistake of calling the local police when I heard some ongoing disturbance outside of my apartment window around 3am. I told them it's probably nothing, but they may want to look into it. I thought they may send out one car to drive by and see if everything's OK. I was shocked what I saw next and I was thinking to myself "What have I done?!". I'm in a high-rise and have a good view of the city. It looked like they sent the entire police force. Police vehicles were flying in from every angle, SUVs jumping over curbs, driving through lawns, etc. It looked like a scene from the original Die Hard. I was nervous they would trace down my cell # if it turned out to be nothing.
hughw 12y ago
It mostly happens to a different demographic than the one that reads HN.
hackuser 12y ago
> I live in the US and have never had to deal with this and live a normal life. I am by no means defending this, in fact I think it's disgusting and awful, but it's not happening on every single street in the county. Yet. I think that's how they get away with it politically. For the politically powerful and even most of the middle class, it's only something they see on the news occasionally.

baddox 12y ago

It might help you understand why a significant portion of Americans are reluctant to allow the government to place further restrictions on firearm ownership.

conductr 12y ago

America is a weird place. If we collectively felt it was out of control or being abused we would fight back through law or force if it got to that point. We're generally just glad to have those options. I think this is a topic where the legal fight is ramping up. These stories are becoming too common and though currently "legal" it just reeks of negligence.

scurvyscott 12y ago
I'm of the unfortunate opinion that Americans are too pacified and complacent to actually step up and do anything against the government. I would love to see people reacting with force and violence at a system that is so oppressive and belligerent.

refurb 12y ago

Go onto youtube and search for "german police beating". There are hours of footage of German police kicking the crap out of protesters (punches to the face, etc). The German police are notorious for being very physical.

anon4 12y ago
Punches to the face are better than holes in the chest. If I had to pick from "will get punched in the face with 90% certainty" or "will get a hole in the chest with 0.01% certainty", I'd pick the first one. Heck, I'd punch myself in the face once for good measure, too.
- refurb 12y ago
  I would as well, but I think my example shows that public tolerance of police behavior varies among countries. German would be horrified with US cops shooting random civilians and Americans are horrified by German police beating suspects for relatively minor infractions.
iagooar 12y ago
That's not a good comparison, show me a video of German police raiding a house while using extreme violence. Not that I'm a big fan of the police, but in this case it's comparing apples to oranges.

joshuapants 12y ago

How about literal military police (that enforce civilian laws) rather than militarized civilian police? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carabinieri http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carabinieri http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Gendarmerie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Gendarmerie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rijkswacht http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rijkswacht (until 2001) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardia_Civil http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardia_Civil