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A Startup With a Way to Filter Botnet Traffic Gets Funding
- opendais 12y ago> "Our discovery is that both Javascript and Flash will also tell you if there’s a real user behind that inferface,” Mr. Kaminsky said." That isn't how that works. That isn't how any of it works. Selenium + https://code.google.com/p/flash-selenium/ https://code.google.com/p/flash-selenium/ == Has both. People who block flash & javascript for security reasons? Also blocks both. The sheer ease of bypass and the rate of false positives for any sophisticated operator is going to be huge. Maybe I'm overly skeptical but I don't see this filtering any bot operation that is sophisticated enough to run something like selenium. EDIT: Folks, I'm aware Selenium is a terrible example but it was the first thing that came to mind. There are plenty of other headless toolkits that are easier to weaponize. Maybe I didn't want to point that out by linking to them/mentioning them? :|
- morley 12y agoIs there any research on how many botnets use Selenium? I would guess that most of them use something more basic just because it's a lot easier to put together.
- opendais 12y agoHow many use Selenium specifically? No. It was just a random example that was intended to not point in an easily weaponized direction. I figured it was both common and known in tech circles that Flash/Javascript executing botnets for ads existed and have for year(s): http://www.spider.io/blog/2013/03/chameleon-botnet/ http://www.spider.io/blog/2013/03/chameleon-botnet/ They were acquired by Google so it isn't just random blog spam: http://techcrunch.com/2014/02/21/google-acquires-spider-io-to-help-spot-and-stop-online-ad-fraud/ http://techcrunch.com/2014/02/21/google-acquires-spider-io-t...
- eli 12y agoMy personal experience with comment/forum spam bot networks is that at least 90% do not understand javascript. The ones that do tend to have extremely realistic traffic patterns and the ability to solve captchas. I suspect those are actually real people with incredibly crappy jobs, not super-intelligent Selenium-powered bots.
- paulgb 12y agoComment/forum spam is different game than botnet ad fraud. The latter executes JavaScript by design since it's often necessary to load the ads.
- acfou 12y agosee the charts from Incapsula in this article which show a third of the bots are not executing javascript https://www.linkedin.com/today/post/article/20140623200557-84444-five-separate-vendors-confirm-bot-traffic-in-60-range https://www.linkedin.com/today/post/article/20140623200557-8...
- kylequest 12y agoInstalling Selenenium on infected machines is not very stealthy. The new malware usually tries to stay in the kernel to avoid detection. Try stuffing Selenium in the kernel :-)
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- kylequest 12y agoI recommend reading about Dan a bit. He's not an amateur in the security world :-)
- scintill76 12y agoWhich makes it weirder, in a way. Surely such a security guru is going to be tweaking his personal browser, especially JS and Flash settings, and probably finding himself locked out of something for not looking enough like a typical clueless netizen. Or, he knows better than most how sophisticated and adaptive lucrative botnets are, so why would he think JS and Flash are deep magic the bots can't do? But, as others have noted, it's probably been boiled down into something dumb for the layperson, and their algorithms are more complex than you would think from that quote. Edit: Actually, given their target users, I guess he wouldn't be locked out, just falsely identified as a fake ad consumer.
- opendais 12y agoI don't care how well known he is. If that quote is accurate, he is peddling something that is known to not work in practice for the more sophisticated botnets.
- kylequest 12y agoThese quotes are never accurate because it's marketology spread by a PR firm :-)
- neilwillgettoit 12y agoThis is correct. If you ever look into how social media botnets are constructed and run, the good ones already do all the command and control through headless webkit tools. It's one of the primary reasons that it is so difficult to filter out whether or not a social profile is indeed a person or not from a statistical observation at mass.
- paulgb 12y agoThey're not looking for the presence/absence of JS/Flash but other things that can be measured by it. I assume their approach is similar to Spider.io (since acqui-hired by Google) which found (if I'm remembering correctly) that certain javascript calls ran differently or at different speeds depending on whether the browser instance was real. Similar to how software can detect whether it's running inside a VM because of subtle differences in how instructions are executed. That said, if I had a botnet I'd just figure out what domains belonged to WhiteOPs and null-route them.
- opendais 12y agoIf that is what it does, they should have clearly stated that in the article. Instead, its in a completely separate press release :/ EDIT: Its apparently stated here: http://www.marketwired.com/press-release/White-Ops-Secures-7-Million-in-Series-A-Funding-1923780.htm http://www.marketwired.com/press-release/White-Ops-Secures-7... "White Ops offers the world's first systematic solution for accurately isolating and eliminating bot-infected traffic. By applying the techniques of Side Channel Analysis across thousands of real-time user session variables, White Ops differentiates between a human and machine-driven request -- regardless of the sophistication of the bot programmer and across the full spectrum of impression and click fraud techniques. This approach is vastly more effective than methods generally employed by legacy fraud detection services, which rely largely on historical data and statistical and predictive analysis to detect bot activity. "
- ryan-c 12y ago> That said, if I had a botnet I'd just figure out what domains belonged to WhiteOPs and null-route them. That and bots that don't execute javascript would be a problem, yes. Our clients can account for that by comparing their traffic numbers with ours. (full disclosure: I work at White Ops on the 'botprinting' team)
- thibauts 12y agoI'd be very interested in knowing more about how the technology works. It's pretty difficult to assess it without more information. Specifically it feels like the good old software protection conundrum where you have to give the keys along with the lock. How do you prevent a bot operator to send the right signal (or not send it) to the (whichever) measuring party ?
- AznHisoka 12y agoIs the startup's secret sauce simply: - Scrape all IP's of server hosts from Arin.net - if IP in that list, it's a bot. - if not, it's human
- lsc 12y agowhat? ARIN tracks all American IPs (thus the 'a') - but if you are a residential ISP, you also get your IPs from ARIN. But the point is that you can't go to ARIN if you want information about European IPs; RIPE is the equivalent European org. If an IP isn't allocated by a RIR, it is a "bogon" and usually dropped by your anti-spoof filters at your router.
- mmaunder 12y agoInteresting idea.
- ryan-c 12y agoThat's a fairly noisy data source with lots of both false positives and false negatives. I've actually been burned by use of that data as a user - the last time I was in Germany for a CCC camp, I needed to log into my bank account. Not trusting the WiFi, I bounced through my VPS to do so. It seemed to work fine, but a few days later the bank froze my account. When I called them they insisted that this activity meant my computer and email had been hacked and I needed to change my email password, virus scan my computer, change my username with the bank and change my password. There was no way for them to mark the use as 'legitimate'. On the other side of the coin, there are lots of ad fraud bots running through residential ISPs.
- briancass 12y agohttp://www.marketwired.com/press-release/White-Ops-Secures-7-Million-in-Series-A-Funding-1923780.htm http://www.marketwired.com/press-release/White-Ops-Secures-7... This is a more descriptive article on this funding round and what White Ops does. The company uses side channel analysis across an array of variables to detect behavioral differences between humans and bots.
- mmaunder 12y agoSide-channel analysis generally refers to analyzing emitted signals like RF emissions and power consumption patterns to defeat crypto systems. So it's an interesting turn of phrase considering it's referring to analysis of 'variables', implying in-channel data, rather than signals.
- briancass 12y agoEditing for disclosure, I recently started working at White Ops as a data scientist.
- morley 12y ago> White Ops sells customers one line of code that allows them to differentiate between bot traffic and the real thing... White Ops tells website operators how much of their traffic is coming from humans and how much of it is coming from bots. Looks like they only report on the percentage of bot users. While that can be useful in the long-run (especially if you're implementing ways to mitigate it), but it seems like it'd be much more useful if you could tell on a per-user or per-session level whether the user was a bot, so you could turn off features like ad-serving or message-sending or whatever.
- ryan-c 12y agoWe have more detailed information about our detection decisions beyond bot percentage available to clients who want it, including statistics on a number of properties such as the type of bot and what bot markers are present.
- nailer 12y agoThis seems pretty much exactly like http://spider.io http://spider.io, now acquired by Google.
- kylequest 12y agoTrying to derive technical details from a business press release or an article in NY Times is silly. Unless you know about the tech and know how to read between the lines it will not make much sense.
- thirsteh 12y agoSo this is a piece of JavaScript. What happens when a bot blocks that JavaScript from running and/or emulates it but returns a result that indicates the user is human?
- ganeumann 12y agoIt wouldn't be hard to make the javascript look like another ad tag. You could probably even serve the WhiteOps js through an ad tag or tag container.
- ryan-c 12y agoPosted this elsewhere in the thread already, but bots that don't run our code can be detected by comparing our traffic numbers with the client's traffic numbers.
- parley 12y agoI don't usually complain about titles (and I know it's the original one from the article), but I came here with the fascinated (though admittedly skeptical) hope that someone had improved radically on botnet DDoS mitigation techniques. It would be better if the title contained words like perhaps "ad" and "fraud".
- dang 12y agoHappy to change it if you or anyone can suggest a more accurate title.