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While I feel for your situation, I had to downvote you because your comment smacked of No True Scotsman and attention hogging. Sorry. A startup folded and left

While I feel for your situation, I had to downvote you because your comment smacked of No True Scotsman and attention hogging. Sorry. A startup folded and left several people with nothing to show for years of effort. It seems pretty callous to me to assert that she didn't fail, when several measures say she did, and she feels like she did. I'm glad she shared her story. Do you think your comment encourages others to do the same?

logicallee 12y ago
I read your parent comment with a large level of irony (i.e. not literally). Your parent is bitter that actually building a successful business - by the metrics you just cited, as your parent claims to be doing -- feels/reads/is lived like total failure compared to the feeling of reading a "faery tale" of running a business into the ground while getting incredible levels of support that were "unearned" (if I try to put myself in your parent commmenter's shoes) because the business wasn't actually profitable. Your parent commenter is bitter about the fact that a total lack of viability - making money - gets support, while he has to bootstrap in the face of derision. madaxe_again: I recommend you get off of HN if you are interested in building a real business. This is a community for building things that investors here would be interested in. If it's not a problem that a rich man with nothing to do all day but look at Internet metrics can see as something to solve, then building a business is not going to get any support from this specific community. You should forget about investors. When has an investor ever backed anything that they couldn't have related to within 15 seconds of hearing a pitch for it? But investors don't represent the people of the world. If you want investment, play with investors. They'll give you $200,000 to stop making money and make a messaging app. If you launch one before you talk with them they'll raise that to $600,000. It is what it is. (Don't read my comment bitterly. I love this ecosystem.)
- madaxe_again 12y ago
  Yup - nail on head. Not bootstrapping any more, we did that bit years ago, but I didn't still want to be here, doing this, eight years down the line - hence this is a failure. A moving, growing, functioning, successful failure. We don't want investors, actually - we don't need 'em. We do, however, want to sell this thing one day, as you can only stare at the sun for so long before going blind. Until then, however, it's fail all the way. And yes, I'm bitter. Amazingly so. Largely with my own naïvety. But the mask is strong.
  - logicallee 12y ago
    (EDIT: I'm not a journalist). If you have an email I would love to talk to you [EDIT:] as a fellow founder. There is a much wider ecosystem in private equity than just HN-style startup investors. The 100 VC's you'll hear about here represent a tiny sliver of a fraction of private equity. I don't know much about the whole market, but I'll tell you what I do know about it and exchange thoughts. - [EDIT:] I wrote this comment first, but following the journalist's response also asking for your email am adding these edits. 1. I would consider giving the journalist your email as well (or email him) as having a story written about you can't hurt -- maybe someone will read about your metrics there and want to invest. You explicitly complain about this in "Support from family and friends, investor backing, media coverage". Now, here's your chance. The journalist has a profile reading "Columnist @ Slate. Contributor @ Priceonomics. Co-host of the Stratechery Podcast (stratechery.fm) with Ben Thompson (currently on hold; please stay tuned)." 2. On the other hand you may be wanting to keep a clear separation from this online identity, which I would respect but the journalist would have to prove through showing you other stories they have written that don't divulge the source. You can give me a pseudonymous email, it's fine.
    - jonnathanson 12y ago
      I may have come on a little abruptly, and if so, I'm very sorry for that. To clarify my request: I'm not a fairweather journalist who just registered an account, looking for a scoop or a "gotcha" piece on this thread. And to whatever extent my post came across that way, I apologize. I'm a founder and reasonably longtime HN member (1330 days, evidently. I wish I could have written this comment 7 days from now!) who got involved in journalism through working with a YC company early last year. When I say I am "inclined to be sympathetic," I mean it. I have a very simple agenda here: I think the media, overall, give too much attention to certain tropes of "success" and "failure" stories w/r/t startups. In this person's story, I am intrigued to see that he's built an economically successful business at which he feels trapped. You don't see that kind of story every day, but I suspect it's not entirely uncommon. At the very least, it's worth exploring. Maybe a story comes out of that chat, and maybe it doesn't. My goal would be to have a friendly chat, and to see where that takes us. If he'd need to talk to me under condition of anonymity, that's totally fine. If he's willing to go on the record, also fine. And if he decides he doesn't want to talk to me at all, hey, totally cool. I would respect any of those choices out of ethical integrity, professional code of conduct, and sympathy for his predicament. As for me: I use my real name on this account. That means both that my journalistic output is easily searchable, and that I'm holding myself openly accountable to anyone I engage with on HN. No pressure intended, either way.
madaxe_again 12y ago
No need to apologise, it's what the downvote button is for :) My comment wasn't intended to be callous - rather to reflect the fact that success and failure aren't as absolute as "the business failed". She is a success, insofar as she has a great support network, a laudable track record, and a press that wants her to speak her piece. The business going to pot means that it failed in its principal objective - but doesn't mean that it failed as a vehicle for those involved. I suppose what I'm saying is the business failed, she didn't. I am a failure, in the same light, yet my business functions and grows like a weed. It is not a vehicle for me, however. The business is a success, but every day feels like a failure, as I had not intended to still be doing this eight years down the line.

logicallee 12y ago

I read your parent comment with a large level of irony (i.e. not literally). Your parent is bitter that actually building a successful business - by the metrics you just cited, as your parent claims to be doing -- feels/reads/is lived like total failure compared to the feeling of reading a "faery tale" of running a business into the ground while getting incredible levels of support that were "unearned" (if I try to put myself in your parent commmenter's shoes) because the business wasn't actually profitable. Your parent commenter is bitter about the fact that a total lack of viability - making money - gets support, while he has to bootstrap in the face of derision. madaxe_again: I recommend you get off of HN if you are interested in building a real business. This is a community for building things that investors here would be interested in. If it's not a problem that a rich man with nothing to do all day but look at Internet metrics can see as something to solve, then building a business is not going to get any support from this specific community. You should forget about investors. When has an investor ever backed anything that they couldn't have related to within 15 seconds of hearing a pitch for it? But investors don't represent the people of the world. If you want investment, play with investors. They'll give you $200,000 to stop making money and make a messaging app. If you launch one before you talk with them they'll raise that to $600,000. It is what it is. (Don't read my comment bitterly. I love this ecosystem.)

madaxe_again 12y ago
Yup - nail on head. Not bootstrapping any more, we did that bit years ago, but I didn't still want to be here, doing this, eight years down the line - hence this is a failure. A moving, growing, functioning, successful failure. We don't want investors, actually - we don't need 'em. We do, however, want to sell this thing one day, as you can only stare at the sun for so long before going blind. Until then, however, it's fail all the way. And yes, I'm bitter. Amazingly so. Largely with my own naïvety. But the mask is strong.
- logicallee 12y ago
  (EDIT: I'm not a journalist). If you have an email I would love to talk to you [EDIT:] as a fellow founder. There is a much wider ecosystem in private equity than just HN-style startup investors. The 100 VC's you'll hear about here represent a tiny sliver of a fraction of private equity. I don't know much about the whole market, but I'll tell you what I do know about it and exchange thoughts. - [EDIT:] I wrote this comment first, but following the journalist's response also asking for your email am adding these edits. 1. I would consider giving the journalist your email as well (or email him) as having a story written about you can't hurt -- maybe someone will read about your metrics there and want to invest. You explicitly complain about this in "Support from family and friends, investor backing, media coverage". Now, here's your chance. The journalist has a profile reading "Columnist @ Slate. Contributor @ Priceonomics. Co-host of the Stratechery Podcast (stratechery.fm) with Ben Thompson (currently on hold; please stay tuned)." 2. On the other hand you may be wanting to keep a clear separation from this online identity, which I would respect but the journalist would have to prove through showing you other stories they have written that don't divulge the source. You can give me a pseudonymous email, it's fine.
  - jonnathanson 12y ago
    I may have come on a little abruptly, and if so, I'm very sorry for that. To clarify my request: I'm not a fairweather journalist who just registered an account, looking for a scoop or a "gotcha" piece on this thread. And to whatever extent my post came across that way, I apologize. I'm a founder and reasonably longtime HN member (1330 days, evidently. I wish I could have written this comment 7 days from now!) who got involved in journalism through working with a YC company early last year. When I say I am "inclined to be sympathetic," I mean it. I have a very simple agenda here: I think the media, overall, give too much attention to certain tropes of "success" and "failure" stories w/r/t startups. In this person's story, I am intrigued to see that he's built an economically successful business at which he feels trapped. You don't see that kind of story every day, but I suspect it's not entirely uncommon. At the very least, it's worth exploring. Maybe a story comes out of that chat, and maybe it doesn't. My goal would be to have a friendly chat, and to see where that takes us. If he'd need to talk to me under condition of anonymity, that's totally fine. If he's willing to go on the record, also fine. And if he decides he doesn't want to talk to me at all, hey, totally cool. I would respect any of those choices out of ethical integrity, professional code of conduct, and sympathy for his predicament. As for me: I use my real name on this account. That means both that my journalistic output is easily searchable, and that I'm holding myself openly accountable to anyone I engage with on HN. No pressure intended, either way.

madaxe_again 12y ago

No need to apologise, it's what the downvote button is for :) My comment wasn't intended to be callous - rather to reflect the fact that success and failure aren't as absolute as "the business failed". She is a success, insofar as she has a great support network, a laudable track record, and a press that wants her to speak her piece. The business going to pot means that it failed in its principal objective - but doesn't mean that it failed as a vehicle for those involved. I suppose what I'm saying is the business failed, she didn't. I am a failure, in the same light, yet my business functions and grows like a weed. It is not a vehicle for me, however. The business is a success, but every day feels like a failure, as I had not intended to still be doing this eight years down the line.