5 ms·

Live Google transit directions change the value of transit

106 points by mblakele 12y ago

cbhl 12y ago
Google Maps actually already does some of the things listed in the article (such as indicating multiple alternatives between two particular stops) but its ability to do so depends on the quality of the data provided by the local transit agencies.
- ithkuil 12y ago
  Yes, sometimes I feel sad I have to read about all this cool stuff that is just "not available in your country" usually because it's a too small market or whatever. In particular transport data (and maps and even streetview) for Dublin, Ireland is very bad, which is weird given that it hosts Google's EU HQ.
  - cbhl 12y ago
    Transport data for Google Maps is something you have to (and can) lobby your municipal government for. (I'm assuming your transit authorities are under municipal jurisdiction, like the ones in Canada and the US.) It took us the better part of the last decade, but virtually every transit operator in the Toronto, Ontario, Canada area is now on Google Maps. Not necessarily with real-time GPS, although the transit authorities in more well-to-do municipalities tend to have it. But you have to work with your neighbours to make it a priority. Whenever they ask for comments (hopefully your municipality is modern enough to ask for this through online forms) then fill it out and ask for them to provide Google Maps data. (On the other hand, local lawsuits also had a part in it -- a disabled (blind or deaf, I forget which) person sued a local transit authority saying that not having the stops announced was preventing him from using public transit and won. So every transit authority had to have drivers read out every stop until they could install computers with GPS and LCD displays and text-to-speech to read out all the stops. Once the buses and trains all had GPS and computers on-board, adding real-time tracking was just a matter of installing a GSM modem on each vehicle.)
fred_durst 12y ago
If anyone wants to point to a place where the latest tech boom has benefited the environment, the best place to look in my opinion is public transit. Catching a bus or train, which once held a significant learning curve is now a couple taps on a smartphone or a text message away. I remember going back to San Francisco with a couple friends and they were just as able to navigate muni as I was, even though they had never lived there.
- idank 12y ago
  Been living in San Francisco for a few weeks now and it still takes me a minute to figure out which direction I need to take in the Metro. Why they chose such unintuitive names such as Inbound and Outbound baffles me.
  - chipsy 12y ago
    The Metro system outgrew what it was circa 1980 and hasn't really caught up with itself. Everything used to end at Embarcadero and there were no loops or crossovers, so station platforms were simply labelled "Downtown" or "Outbound." Then the lines started going beyond Embarcadero starting in 1998 with the extension to Caltrain. Then we got the T Third Street extension in 2007. At that point the old convention stopped making sense, and I completely agree with the confusion.
qzervaas 12y ago
As the author of a public transit iOS/Android app, these kinds of improvements to Google Maps both excite me (from a "that's cool" perspective) and worry me (from a business perspective) at the same time. Real-time data is an area Google haven't pushed too hard into at this time (despite developing the GTFS-RealTime standard), so that has been an easy way for me to differentiate from Google Maps. If anybody's interested in the kinds of real-time and static data Google (and other developers) use, I collect and archive many of the feeds here: http://transitfeeds.com http://transitfeeds.com Hoping to add additional tools for browsing / searching this data when I figure out how to make it all scale nicely.
- tacticus 12y ago
  It's really disturbing how well populated queensland is and how fail the victorian transit providers are :\
erjiang 12y ago
As a programmer who develops software for public transit, there is a lot of opportunity for technology to make a difference. But, it's not the kind of market that VCs and entrepreneurs prefer. Public transit agencies vary dramatically from city to city, but they are the ones who provide Google with data on their transit system's timetables. In fact, Google is the last in a chain of software and manual labor that creates and manages transit schedules. It's very hard to create software that captures all the nuances and variations in transit to create a one-size-fits-all solution. The other tough part is funding - public transit improvements are often driven by grant money because the operating budget all goes to day-to-day expenses. And oftentimes the wealthier people who could make a difference in transit (e.g. SV techies) own cars or otherwise avoid public transit because it's so inconvenient, so they often don't notice the problems.
- maigret 12y ago
  Hi, I'd like to hear more why data couldn't bridge that gap and why Google maps would work accross the world for cars but not for public transits. - The game would be probably to provide some kind of standard or API that would make all those independant providers rally accross a common model. Would save communities cost & improve the service. Probably a big market. - If you look outside of the US, public transit (in some form or the other) is for wealthy people as well. Think Japan & Europe.
  - dave1010uk 12y ago
    In addition to GTFS, in Europe we have Transmodle [0], with the UK implementation being TransXChange [1], for scheduled public transit timetables and SIRI for real-time [2]. The TransXChange schema guide is a 300+ page PDF [3], so there is a big barrier to entry. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmodel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmodel [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TransXChange http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TransXChange [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_Interface_for_Real_Time_Information http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_Interface_for_Real_Time... [3] http://81.17.70.199/transxchange/schema/2.5/doc/TransXChangeSchemaGuide-2.5-v-59.pdf http://81.17.70.199/transxchange/schema/2.5/doc/TransXChange...
  - 12y ago
jpatokal 12y ago
Due to how rapidly things change, the system also needs to display when multiple options are equivalent. For example, it might say, “Go to the train platform and take the B train northbound.” Then due to how things have change, you see a C train show up — do you get on it? Instead, it should say, “Take a B, C or E train going north towards X, Y or Z, but B should come first.” Google Maps already does this to some extent. In the query for "Zurich Hbf to Zurich Airport" below, the first option is given as "IC/IR/S/S2/S16", and only when you click on "Next trip" are you given a specific train name, platform, departure time etc. https://goo.gl/maps/yibGy https://goo.gl/maps/yibGy
geden 12y ago
I've recently started using Citymapper for iOS and have found it to be quite simply the most useful app on my phone. 'Next level' usefulness, stemming from great UI that shows you the time and cost (in money or calories!) of making the journey by foot, bus, underground/train or taxi. It turns out in London 'by foot' is a much more viable option than you think once the overheads of other methods are taken into account. Weird thing is - it doesn't seem to use real time data, just uses average wait times, based on timetables. Turns out in London and Berlin where I use it, there are so many transport options that average wait times, (when known) never seem problematic. That said, combine in real time data then clearly choosing routes becomes easier. After that combining in data on how loaded each vehicle is makes things a whole lot more efficient. Ie 'walk 2 mins extra to this other stop as this next bus is rammed'. Good times!
- koyote 12y ago
  >Weird thing is - it doesn't seem to use real time data, just uses average wait times, based on timetables. Turns out in London and Berlin where I use it, there are so many transport options that average wait times, (when known) never seem problematic. I am quite sure Citymapper uses live data for buses (not sure about tubes as some lines, such as the Circle/District, don't always have correct data). So it will often recommend you to take the bus if there happens to be one shortly arriving at a stop nearby as opposed to walking to the tube that might be 5-10min walk away.
leoedin 12y ago
The Google Maps public transport routing in London is often sub-optimal. It seems very hesitant to recommend taking the tube - an example recently involved it recommending that I took a 45 minute bus rather than a 10 minute tube journey. I imagine that the problem is hard - in London you can easily have 10 different bus routes available. Start combining multiple buses in complicated routes and the number of possible routes grows exponentially. It may also be that the system places different value on the variables than me - journey cost, number of changes, the journey time, the likelihood of delay (buses in rush hour can be slow!) and acceptable walking distance all play a part in my selection of routes, but if the algorithm is set up differently then it might produce a different result. I think Google are trying to address this by gathering data about your habits and informing choices based on that (certainly Google Now makes route recommendations based on my location history, and tweaks that based on historical route preference). It will be interesting to see how this progresses.
- ghaff 12y ago
  There's sort of an opposite weirdness in San Francisco which is a bit ironic given where Google is located. Namely, based on various visits, Google seems very big on one taking the streetcar. Now SF streetcars are all very scenic and fun and all that but--with the possible exception of a few routes at non-crowded times of day (if there is such a thing)--useful public transportation they really aren't. (For one thing, there's often a block long line of tourists waiting to get on.) But, yeah, it's hard. Not sure how you handle it other than just excluding streetcars from the list. (Which might not be a terrible heuristic in SF; locals feel free to disagree.)
rileya 12y ago
As a Seattle resident I've found the OneBusAway app extremely useful, it's never been off by more than a couple minutes. Getting widespread realtime transit info into a mainstream app like gmaps could be a complete game-changer for public transit.
sanxiyn 12y ago
Seoul Transport Operation provides a public REST API including the live transit feed. Apparently this is not common? http://api.bus.go.kr/ http://api.bus.go.kr/
- qzervaas 12y ago
  It is becoming far more common, especially in the 12-18 months. Not much in Asia yet though on this front.
maaaats 12y ago
I moved to Oslo (the city mentioned in the article) last week. I have to say Google Maps hasn't always played nicely, if it were not for me having been here before I would have wasted a lot of time. I have a much better experience using HERE Maps (by "old" Nokia). The great part about them is that you can download a region (not just buffer map data as you do on Google) so searching in the map, public transport, directions etc. all work when in unknown cities abroad without mobile data.
CalRobert 12y ago
Sadly some cities are loath to release their data. I more or less begged Santa Monica's Big Blue Bus to let me make an app showing nothing more than the real-time arrival data they already had on signs (but only in the very busiest and most touristed areas) and they blew me off repeatedly. They have been claiming they will add this for 6 years. Meanwhile this data is available for every other bus operator (LA Metro, Culver City bus, etc.) in the area.
- judk 12y ago
  Indeed. The only reason OneBusAway exists in Seattle is because of political connections between the creator (at U Washington) and the trasit agency
- bcoates 12y ago
  Even the non-realtime data is dicey, I keep having apps showing weekday schedules on weekends for BBB lines. I want a waze for buses that treats buses as an observation problem instead of a data-entry problem.
iconjack 12y ago
Back in 2008 I submitted a similar idea to Google for their 10^100 idea fest. It goes a step farther in that not only do you get directions from your phone, but the buses are re-routed dynamically, in real time, to optimize travel times. Think of your phone as a fancy elevator call button—you use it to summon a bus but furthermore the central routing computer knows where you are and where you want to go. The buses (er, bus drivers—for now) also get directions from the routing computer. The 10^100 deal seemed to just quietly fizzle. I never heard back anything, and I'm not sure they ever picked any projects to run with. FWIW, here's the submission. 10. What one sentence best describes your idea? (maximum 150 characters) Bring the bus system into the new millennium. 11. Describe your idea in more depth. (maximum 300 words) The goal is to revamp the municipal bus system by using a little technology. The key ideas are: a. Riders use their cell phones as a kind of "elevator call button." Using an Android app, they tell a central computer where they are (possibly automatic with GPS) and where they want to go. b. There are no fixed routes. A central computer is continuously processing requests and sending routing information to the bus fleet in real time. c. Riders are given instructions, via their phone, as to where to go to catch which bus, and where to get off. d. Integration with Google Maps is an obvious win! 12. What problem or issue does your idea address? (maximum 150 words) Current bus systems are underutilized because of long wait times and because most riders don't know the routes well enough to feel comfortable. 13. If your idea were to become a reality, who would benefit the most and how? (maximum 150 words) The biggest beneficiary would be those who want to ride the but but don't now because of route unfamiliarity and long wait times. All commuters would benefit from the decrease in traffic and pollution. 14. What are the initial steps required to get this idea off the ground? (maximum 150 words) At first, a simulation to demonstrate the effectiveness of the new model. Then, a pilot city to give it a real spin. 15. Describe the optimal outcome should your idea be selected and successfully implemented. How would you measure it? (maximum 150 words) The desired outcome is an increase in ridership and fewer cars on the road. A straightforward metric is a simple rider count. 18. If you'd like to recommend a specific organization, or the ideal type of organization, to execute your plan, please do so here. (maximum 50 words) I think Google would be an ideal implementer.
- judk 12y ago
  You invented Uber. You could have become billionaire.
panarky 12y ago
Helsinki’s personalized bus service is like Uber for public transportation https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7391885 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7391885
fiatjaf 12y ago
With Google Transit becoming so good, probably because of Waze data, will people continue to use Waze? If people stop using Waze, wouldn't Google Transit become worse?
- cdh 12y ago
  I'm not sure that's the case, but if it were, perhaps more people would start using Waze again after Google Transit became worse. (Repeat process forever.)

106 points by mblakele 12y ago

cbhl 12y ago

Google Maps actually already does some of the things listed in the article (such as indicating multiple alternatives between two particular stops) but its ability to do so depends on the quality of the data provided by the local transit agencies.

ithkuil 12y ago
Yes, sometimes I feel sad I have to read about all this cool stuff that is just "not available in your country" usually because it's a too small market or whatever. In particular transport data (and maps and even streetview) for Dublin, Ireland is very bad, which is weird given that it hosts Google's EU HQ.
- cbhl 12y ago
  Transport data for Google Maps is something you have to (and can) lobby your municipal government for. (I'm assuming your transit authorities are under municipal jurisdiction, like the ones in Canada and the US.) It took us the better part of the last decade, but virtually every transit operator in the Toronto, Ontario, Canada area is now on Google Maps. Not necessarily with real-time GPS, although the transit authorities in more well-to-do municipalities tend to have it. But you have to work with your neighbours to make it a priority. Whenever they ask for comments (hopefully your municipality is modern enough to ask for this through online forms) then fill it out and ask for them to provide Google Maps data. (On the other hand, local lawsuits also had a part in it -- a disabled (blind or deaf, I forget which) person sued a local transit authority saying that not having the stops announced was preventing him from using public transit and won. So every transit authority had to have drivers read out every stop until they could install computers with GPS and LCD displays and text-to-speech to read out all the stops. Once the buses and trains all had GPS and computers on-board, adding real-time tracking was just a matter of installing a GSM modem on each vehicle.)

fred_durst 12y ago

If anyone wants to point to a place where the latest tech boom has benefited the environment, the best place to look in my opinion is public transit. Catching a bus or train, which once held a significant learning curve is now a couple taps on a smartphone or a text message away. I remember going back to San Francisco with a couple friends and they were just as able to navigate muni as I was, even though they had never lived there.

idank 12y ago
Been living in San Francisco for a few weeks now and it still takes me a minute to figure out which direction I need to take in the Metro. Why they chose such unintuitive names such as Inbound and Outbound baffles me.
- chipsy 12y ago
  The Metro system outgrew what it was circa 1980 and hasn't really caught up with itself. Everything used to end at Embarcadero and there were no loops or crossovers, so station platforms were simply labelled "Downtown" or "Outbound." Then the lines started going beyond Embarcadero starting in 1998 with the extension to Caltrain. Then we got the T Third Street extension in 2007. At that point the old convention stopped making sense, and I completely agree with the confusion.

qzervaas 12y ago

As the author of a public transit iOS/Android app, these kinds of improvements to Google Maps both excite me (from a "that's cool" perspective) and worry me (from a business perspective) at the same time. Real-time data is an area Google haven't pushed too hard into at this time (despite developing the GTFS-RealTime standard), so that has been an easy way for me to differentiate from Google Maps. If anybody's interested in the kinds of real-time and static data Google (and other developers) use, I collect and archive many of the feeds here: http://transitfeeds.com http://transitfeeds.com Hoping to add additional tools for browsing / searching this data when I figure out how to make it all scale nicely.

tacticus 12y ago
It's really disturbing how well populated queensland is and how fail the victorian transit providers are :\

erjiang 12y ago

As a programmer who develops software for public transit, there is a lot of opportunity for technology to make a difference. But, it's not the kind of market that VCs and entrepreneurs prefer. Public transit agencies vary dramatically from city to city, but they are the ones who provide Google with data on their transit system's timetables. In fact, Google is the last in a chain of software and manual labor that creates and manages transit schedules. It's very hard to create software that captures all the nuances and variations in transit to create a one-size-fits-all solution. The other tough part is funding - public transit improvements are often driven by grant money because the operating budget all goes to day-to-day expenses. And oftentimes the wealthier people who could make a difference in transit (e.g. SV techies) own cars or otherwise avoid public transit because it's so inconvenient, so they often don't notice the problems.

maigret 12y ago
Hi, I'd like to hear more why data couldn't bridge that gap and why Google maps would work accross the world for cars but not for public transits. - The game would be probably to provide some kind of standard or API that would make all those independant providers rally accross a common model. Would save communities cost & improve the service. Probably a big market. - If you look outside of the US, public transit (in some form or the other) is for wealthy people as well. Think Japan & Europe.
- dave1010uk 12y ago
  In addition to GTFS, in Europe we have Transmodle [0], with the UK implementation being TransXChange [1], for scheduled public transit timetables and SIRI for real-time [2]. The TransXChange schema guide is a 300+ page PDF [3], so there is a big barrier to entry. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmodel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmodel [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TransXChange http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TransXChange [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_Interface_for_Real_Time_Information http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_Interface_for_Real_Time... [3] http://81.17.70.199/transxchange/schema/2.5/doc/TransXChangeSchemaGuide-2.5-v-59.pdf http://81.17.70.199/transxchange/schema/2.5/doc/TransXChange...
- 12y ago

jpatokal 12y ago

Due to how rapidly things change, the system also needs to display when multiple options are equivalent. For example, it might say, “Go to the train platform and take the B train northbound.” Then due to how things have change, you see a C train show up — do you get on it? Instead, it should say, “Take a B, C or E train going north towards X, Y or Z, but B should come first.” Google Maps already does this to some extent. In the query for "Zurich Hbf to Zurich Airport" below, the first option is given as "IC/IR/S/S2/S16", and only when you click on "Next trip" are you given a specific train name, platform, departure time etc. https://goo.gl/maps/yibGy https://goo.gl/maps/yibGy

geden 12y ago

I've recently started using Citymapper for iOS and have found it to be quite simply the most useful app on my phone. 'Next level' usefulness, stemming from great UI that shows you the time and cost (in money or calories!) of making the journey by foot, bus, underground/train or taxi. It turns out in London 'by foot' is a much more viable option than you think once the overheads of other methods are taken into account. Weird thing is - it doesn't seem to use real time data, just uses average wait times, based on timetables. Turns out in London and Berlin where I use it, there are so many transport options that average wait times, (when known) never seem problematic. That said, combine in real time data then clearly choosing routes becomes easier. After that combining in data on how loaded each vehicle is makes things a whole lot more efficient. Ie 'walk 2 mins extra to this other stop as this next bus is rammed'. Good times!

koyote 12y ago
>Weird thing is - it doesn't seem to use real time data, just uses average wait times, based on timetables. Turns out in London and Berlin where I use it, there are so many transport options that average wait times, (when known) never seem problematic. I am quite sure Citymapper uses live data for buses (not sure about tubes as some lines, such as the Circle/District, don't always have correct data). So it will often recommend you to take the bus if there happens to be one shortly arriving at a stop nearby as opposed to walking to the tube that might be 5-10min walk away.

leoedin 12y ago

The Google Maps public transport routing in London is often sub-optimal. It seems very hesitant to recommend taking the tube - an example recently involved it recommending that I took a 45 minute bus rather than a 10 minute tube journey. I imagine that the problem is hard - in London you can easily have 10 different bus routes available. Start combining multiple buses in complicated routes and the number of possible routes grows exponentially. It may also be that the system places different value on the variables than me - journey cost, number of changes, the journey time, the likelihood of delay (buses in rush hour can be slow!) and acceptable walking distance all play a part in my selection of routes, but if the algorithm is set up differently then it might produce a different result. I think Google are trying to address this by gathering data about your habits and informing choices based on that (certainly Google Now makes route recommendations based on my location history, and tweaks that based on historical route preference). It will be interesting to see how this progresses.

ghaff 12y ago
There's sort of an opposite weirdness in San Francisco which is a bit ironic given where Google is located. Namely, based on various visits, Google seems very big on one taking the streetcar. Now SF streetcars are all very scenic and fun and all that but--with the possible exception of a few routes at non-crowded times of day (if there is such a thing)--useful public transportation they really aren't. (For one thing, there's often a block long line of tourists waiting to get on.) But, yeah, it's hard. Not sure how you handle it other than just excluding streetcars from the list. (Which might not be a terrible heuristic in SF; locals feel free to disagree.)

rileya 12y ago

As a Seattle resident I've found the OneBusAway app extremely useful, it's never been off by more than a couple minutes. Getting widespread realtime transit info into a mainstream app like gmaps could be a complete game-changer for public transit.

sanxiyn 12y ago

Seoul Transport Operation provides a public REST API including the live transit feed. Apparently this is not common? http://api.bus.go.kr/ http://api.bus.go.kr/

qzervaas 12y ago
It is becoming far more common, especially in the 12-18 months. Not much in Asia yet though on this front.

maaaats 12y ago

I moved to Oslo (the city mentioned in the article) last week. I have to say Google Maps hasn't always played nicely, if it were not for me having been here before I would have wasted a lot of time. I have a much better experience using HERE Maps (by "old" Nokia). The great part about them is that you can download a region (not just buffer map data as you do on Google) so searching in the map, public transport, directions etc. all work when in unknown cities abroad without mobile data.

CalRobert 12y ago

Sadly some cities are loath to release their data. I more or less begged Santa Monica's Big Blue Bus to let me make an app showing nothing more than the real-time arrival data they already had on signs (but only in the very busiest and most touristed areas) and they blew me off repeatedly. They have been claiming they will add this for 6 years. Meanwhile this data is available for every other bus operator (LA Metro, Culver City bus, etc.) in the area.

judk 12y ago
Indeed. The only reason OneBusAway exists in Seattle is because of political connections between the creator (at U Washington) and the trasit agency
bcoates 12y ago
Even the non-realtime data is dicey, I keep having apps showing weekday schedules on weekends for BBB lines. I want a waze for buses that treats buses as an observation problem instead of a data-entry problem.

iconjack 12y ago

Back in 2008 I submitted a similar idea to Google for their 10^100 idea fest. It goes a step farther in that not only do you get directions from your phone, but the buses are re-routed dynamically, in real time, to optimize travel times. Think of your phone as a fancy elevator call button—you use it to summon a bus but furthermore the central routing computer knows where you are and where you want to go. The buses (er, bus drivers—for now) also get directions from the routing computer. The 10^100 deal seemed to just quietly fizzle. I never heard back anything, and I'm not sure they ever picked any projects to run with. FWIW, here's the submission. 10. What one sentence best describes your idea? (maximum 150 characters) Bring the bus system into the new millennium. 11. Describe your idea in more depth. (maximum 300 words) The goal is to revamp the municipal bus system by using a little technology. The key ideas are: a. Riders use their cell phones as a kind of "elevator call button." Using an Android app, they tell a central computer where they are (possibly automatic with GPS) and where they want to go. b. There are no fixed routes. A central computer is continuously processing requests and sending routing information to the bus fleet in real time. c. Riders are given instructions, via their phone, as to where to go to catch which bus, and where to get off. d. Integration with Google Maps is an obvious win! 12. What problem or issue does your idea address? (maximum 150 words) Current bus systems are underutilized because of long wait times and because most riders don't know the routes well enough to feel comfortable. 13. If your idea were to become a reality, who would benefit the most and how? (maximum 150 words) The biggest beneficiary would be those who want to ride the but but don't now because of route unfamiliarity and long wait times. All commuters would benefit from the decrease in traffic and pollution. 14. What are the initial steps required to get this idea off the ground? (maximum 150 words) At first, a simulation to demonstrate the effectiveness of the new model. Then, a pilot city to give it a real spin. 15. Describe the optimal outcome should your idea be selected and successfully implemented. How would you measure it? (maximum 150 words) The desired outcome is an increase in ridership and fewer cars on the road. A straightforward metric is a simple rider count. 18. If you'd like to recommend a specific organization, or the ideal type of organization, to execute your plan, please do so here. (maximum 50 words) I think Google would be an ideal implementer.

judk 12y ago
You invented Uber. You could have become billionaire.

panarky 12y ago

Helsinki’s personalized bus service is like Uber for public transportation https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7391885 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7391885

fiatjaf 12y ago

With Google Transit becoming so good, probably because of Waze data, will people continue to use Waze? If people stop using Waze, wouldn't Google Transit become worse?

cdh 12y ago
I'm not sure that's the case, but if it were, perhaps more people would start using Waze again after Google Transit became worse. (Repeat process forever.)