6 ms·

Young developers should save 50% of their after tax income. In some ways, this industry is awesome: to be able to make six figures in your early 20s is an incr

by nugget 12y ago

Young developers should save 50% of their after tax income. In some ways, this industry is awesome: to be able to make six figures in your early 20s is an incredible benefit and potential head start on financial independence. In other ways, this industry is incredibly cruel: you will run into age discrimination and the other headwinds mentioned in your mid 30s, if not earlier. I tell the folks I mentor to think of themselves as professional athletes with a 15, maybe 20 year career.

hnriot 12y ago
"I tell the folks I mentor to think of themselves as professional athletes with a 15, maybe 20 year career." what terrible advice! Please stop "mentoring" "Young developers should save 50% of their after tax income." I wonder how long it's been since you were young. While saving early is likely a good idea, it's also the time that student loans, young families, buying houses etc are all huge costs that very likely making saving much impossible. It's also a time to have fun, travel, enjoy life. I've been a software developer for 27 years and have encountered none of the "incredibly cruel" discriminations you suggest. It's definitely true and I see this often that many as they age don't bother to stay current, they get stuck in old ways and don't want to keep up to date. But for those that do, those that stay at the forefront of their field there's no discrimination. You just have to be better than the rest, whether you're 20 or 50. please please stop telling people this nonsense.
- kelnos 12y ago
  Agreed that it can be difficult to save right out of college. Due to my relatively low entry-level salary, as well as college loans and living expenses, I didn't start really saving/investing until I'd been out for ~4 years. The problem is, though, starting saving/investing even just a couple years sooner can turn into much higher returns down the road, so it's a good idea to start that trend as early as possible. If you can find investments with a higher yield than your loan interest rate, it can make sense to pay the minimum on your loans and carry the debt for a while. Nowadays I do save more than 50% of my income, but I also have no dependents or debt.
- nugget 12y ago
  I appreciate your interest in this topic and don't mind the personal criticism. I am sure some younger developers will read this, so for that reason I will respond to some of your points. << I wonder how long it's been since you were young. While saving early is likely a good idea, it's also the time that student loans, young families, buying houses etc are all huge costs that very likely making saving much impossible. It's also a time to have fun, travel, enjoy life. >> These are all great excuses for not saving. Life doesn't care about your excuses. You either find a way to do it, or you don't. Some people will have such severe extenuating circumstances that saving much or anything is impossible, and my heart goes out to those people (and my respect for fighting an even harder battle than the rest of us). But the majority of young, employed developers can do it. Having fun, traveling and enjoying life in your 20s sounds great (and you can afford some of that even saving half your net income); but what about being in debt and living paycheck to paycheck in your 40s, with the stress of a spouse and kids to support? Having substantially no safety net to quit your job or take risks, so that you become enslaved to a safe job even if you hate it? The parable of the Ant and the Grasshopper is as true today as it was 2500 years ago when Aesop put it into his book of fables. And the truth is, having fun, traveling and enjoying life is great at almost any age, and much easier to do (and more enjoyable) with some financial independence. Saving when you are very young yields such huge benefits due to compound interest over time that it looks like a magic trick. As for me, my experience is anecdotal but I did live through some incredibly hard times, including living in my car and with roommates in shitty apartments, and eating off the dollar menu at McDonalds for a long time (not recommended), and making a lot of other sacrifices in my personal life to get to where I wanted. I also had a lot of fun, traveled very cheaply with lifelong friends and had a great time. It's a balance, but not one that most people seem to strike very well. << I've been a software developer for 27 years and have encountered none of the "incredibly cruel" discriminations you suggest. It's definitely true and I see this often that many as they age don't bother to stay current, they get stuck in old ways and don't want to keep up to date. >> I didn't imply that your interviewer would be ''incredibly cruel'' as in they would sneer and snicker at your age and you would encounter an environment of overt hostility and rudeness. I meant the transition from being ''hot'' and persistently courted by many companies and recruiters to no longer being as desirable can be confusing, painful mental whiplash. Having known a few professional athletes, the parallels are actually pretty apt - it's hard to go from the spotlight to the background for anyone. I agree with you that many don't bother to stay current as they age, and they should. Continuing education is not stressed enough in our field. << But for those that do, those that stay at the forefront of their field there's no discrimination. You just have to be better than the rest, whether you're 20 or 50. >> I think this is demonstrably false, with a few rare exceptions. There is an age bias in our industry and it doesn't help anyone to pretend like it doesn't exist. In most startups and some company cultures it is worse, and in some company cultures it doesn't exisit at all, and in most companies it probably falls somewhere in between. I'm not saying that developers are unemployable after a certain age - they aren't, it's still very easy, relatively speaking, for them to find a job, but it might not be the job they want or the company they want to work for. Financinal independence gives them the freedom to pick and choose, or start their own company, rather than becoming sucked into slavery within a system that appreciates them progressively less and less each year.
- nilkn 12y ago
  I actually think more people should act as if their career is going to end in 20 years. Thinking in these terms really drives home what you need to do if you want actual financial independence. Even if the goal is not realistically attainable, it shows you exactly where you stand. Let's say you think $1M is good enough for your notion of financial independence. Well, how can you accumulate that amount in 20 years? One way would be to invest $2750/month. If you can manage an average annual return of 4%, you'll hit the $1M mark right after 20 years. If you start at 25 (giving you a buffer period after college to grow some roots), you'll be good by the time you're 45. Note that in this case, "financial independence" doesn't necessarily have to mean that you're wealthy enough to live your picture perfect life without ever working a day again. It could simply mean that you've reached a point where you don't need to save more and could take a 50% paycut without any serious long-term implications for your retirement. An example might be that you make low six figures up until age 45, surpass the $1M mark in investments, and then you get hit by ageism and your income drops by half for whatever reason. You're not going to be saving much anymore unless you make lifestyle changes, but you've still got the million bucks in the bank. The drop in income has impacted your ability to save and invest more, but it has had no effect on the savings you've already amassed, and it's still good enough to sustain your comfortable lifestyle with more modest savings.
  - meowface 12y ago
    Keep in mind software dev salaries often aren't as high in states outside of CA and NY, especially when working for smaller companies and companies that aren't tech-centered. Saving $2750 per month would be far too difficult for many software devs in other parts of the US. I do agree that saving a lot early on is a good idea though.
    - nilkn 12y ago
      One big life hack is to learn to balance salary with cost of living. It isn't always about pursuing the highest possible salary, because that might mean you're paying most of it in rent. Consider a $75k salary in Texas. That's $4766/month net (or thereabout), due to lack of state income tax. Let's say you pay $1k/month in rent (very realistic for most of Texas). That leaves you with $3766. That $2750/month figure won't be too far off if you don't have any dependents and live frugally, especially if you take advantage of tax-advantaged savings (like a 401(k)). The thing is, you can make more than $75k in Texas, especially once you've got a few years of experience under your belt. So while I completely agree that it's not going to be attainable for everybody, I think it's not so far off as many might think.
- jebblue 12y ago
  >> I've been a software developer for 27 years and have encountered none of the "incredibly cruel" discriminations you suggest. It's definitely true and I see this often that many as they age don't bother to stay current, It happened to me. I did and do stay current, there is a perception among management, especially in UI development that only college grads get the new stuff. The old folks only know how to do back-end well is their perception. This is why enterprises fail, clueless management.
hawkharris 12y ago
As a 20-something developer, I appreciate and agree with your insights. Also, I give you credit for responding in a mature way to some of the overly harsh responses to your comment. I guess that some level of gruffness comes with the territory of HN's matter-of-fact debate culture.
megablast 12y ago
> Young developers should save 50% of their after tax income. As someone who travels overseas once or twice a year, goes out all the time, I still manage to save>50% of my income. I don't have a car, cycle everywhere, live in a great share house, always look for deals (for traveling and eating out), and stay in the cheaper hotels/bus it around.
- hessenwolf 12y ago
  Do you have a partner that agrees with that lifestyle? That is where my asceticism runs aground.
  - warbastard 12y ago
    Exactly the same problem for me. It's hard to save when your partner doesn't want to do it for various reasons
  - nnnnni 12y ago
    ...or live somewhere where it's possible to live that way.
YZF 12y ago
People should try to save early however for most people working a "normal" software development job being able to retire after working for 15 years is unrealistic. Learning to live frugally and to invest wisely are useful traits though. I've never switched jobs to make more money. In every situation where I switched a job my current employer was willing to match my offer. I will switch jobs to work with smarter people, to work on more interesting problems, to work with newer technologies, or to fight boredom. In theory I would switch to a job with lower pay to satisfy other requirements but luckily I never had to do so. I don't think there's much to the professional athlete analogy. There is virtually no "demand" for more professional athletes while the demand for good software developers is ever growing and is unlikely to show any sign of slowing down. There are cycles but the trend is up. It is also really hard to be a good software developer and requires a combination of aptitude and attitude. I work for a US startup and I know we do not discriminate by age (if anything older developers are over-represented). In companies like Google, Microsoft, Apple, more experienced developers (in their 40s and 50s) are pretty well represented (keep in mind that as you go back in time the % developers is naturally less simply because the industry was much much smaller). Saying that I realize that in some places simply being a bit older would be seen as a poor fit and definitely someone who is just starting to code in their 50s is not going to be looked at the same as someone out of MIT. Another thing to realize is that software development is an immensely wide field. I think your advice is reasonable for someone who has only started writing code in school, works in relatively "easy" areas where a lot of expertise isn't required, is really in it for the money and approaches things with that sort of cold success driven attitude. People who have talent, go deep into their fields of study and are highly motivated are probably looking at a much longer successful career. [EDIT: In other words it depends on what types of software you work on, your abilities and passion, and your further ability to maintain your abilities and passion and expand your knowledge.] That said there's absolutely no way to project what the world economy or job market will look like 20 years from today. There are likely to be pretty big changes. One can imagine a much larger % of the population working remotely. One can imagine some breakthroughs related to aging that will make the entire age issue moot. Who knows. My advice to juniors is to strive to be the best at what you do. If you're the best you'll always have a job. Professional athletes don't always stop working when they're 30-something, they can become a higher paid coach. They can work on TV. Lots of options. By the way the average age of athletes has also been creeping up.
pjc50 12y ago
save 50% of their after tax income That rules out living in SF or London, for example.
gaius 12y ago
Yes and no. Saving cash makes little sense in the current financial environment, once you have your rainy day fund of 3 months living expenses. Buy an apartment or a house and put the extra cash into overpayments, you can't retire after 15 years but you could own your home free and clear.
- AppSec 12y ago
  Keeping it cash? No. Putting it in a 401K, IRA, or market based account certainly does have much greater benefits. And of course, once that grows you can most certainly retire after 15 years. Or at least be financially independent and choose your working environment.

by nugget 12y ago

hnriot 12y ago

"I tell the folks I mentor to think of themselves as professional athletes with a 15, maybe 20 year career." what terrible advice! Please stop "mentoring" "Young developers should save 50% of their after tax income." I wonder how long it's been since you were young. While saving early is likely a good idea, it's also the time that student loans, young families, buying houses etc are all huge costs that very likely making saving much impossible. It's also a time to have fun, travel, enjoy life. I've been a software developer for 27 years and have encountered none of the "incredibly cruel" discriminations you suggest. It's definitely true and I see this often that many as they age don't bother to stay current, they get stuck in old ways and don't want to keep up to date. But for those that do, those that stay at the forefront of their field there's no discrimination. You just have to be better than the rest, whether you're 20 or 50. please please stop telling people this nonsense.

kelnos 12y ago
Agreed that it can be difficult to save right out of college. Due to my relatively low entry-level salary, as well as college loans and living expenses, I didn't start really saving/investing until I'd been out for ~4 years. The problem is, though, starting saving/investing even just a couple years sooner can turn into much higher returns down the road, so it's a good idea to start that trend as early as possible. If you can find investments with a higher yield than your loan interest rate, it can make sense to pay the minimum on your loans and carry the debt for a while. Nowadays I do save more than 50% of my income, but I also have no dependents or debt.
nugget 12y ago
I appreciate your interest in this topic and don't mind the personal criticism. I am sure some younger developers will read this, so for that reason I will respond to some of your points. << I wonder how long it's been since you were young. While saving early is likely a good idea, it's also the time that student loans, young families, buying houses etc are all huge costs that very likely making saving much impossible. It's also a time to have fun, travel, enjoy life. >> These are all great excuses for not saving. Life doesn't care about your excuses. You either find a way to do it, or you don't. Some people will have such severe extenuating circumstances that saving much or anything is impossible, and my heart goes out to those people (and my respect for fighting an even harder battle than the rest of us). But the majority of young, employed developers can do it. Having fun, traveling and enjoying life in your 20s sounds great (and you can afford some of that even saving half your net income); but what about being in debt and living paycheck to paycheck in your 40s, with the stress of a spouse and kids to support? Having substantially no safety net to quit your job or take risks, so that you become enslaved to a safe job even if you hate it? The parable of the Ant and the Grasshopper is as true today as it was 2500 years ago when Aesop put it into his book of fables. And the truth is, having fun, traveling and enjoying life is great at almost any age, and much easier to do (and more enjoyable) with some financial independence. Saving when you are very young yields such huge benefits due to compound interest over time that it looks like a magic trick. As for me, my experience is anecdotal but I did live through some incredibly hard times, including living in my car and with roommates in shitty apartments, and eating off the dollar menu at McDonalds for a long time (not recommended), and making a lot of other sacrifices in my personal life to get to where I wanted. I also had a lot of fun, traveled very cheaply with lifelong friends and had a great time. It's a balance, but not one that most people seem to strike very well. << I've been a software developer for 27 years and have encountered none of the "incredibly cruel" discriminations you suggest. It's definitely true and I see this often that many as they age don't bother to stay current, they get stuck in old ways and don't want to keep up to date. >> I didn't imply that your interviewer would be ''incredibly cruel'' as in they would sneer and snicker at your age and you would encounter an environment of overt hostility and rudeness. I meant the transition from being ''hot'' and persistently courted by many companies and recruiters to no longer being as desirable can be confusing, painful mental whiplash. Having known a few professional athletes, the parallels are actually pretty apt - it's hard to go from the spotlight to the background for anyone. I agree with you that many don't bother to stay current as they age, and they should. Continuing education is not stressed enough in our field. << But for those that do, those that stay at the forefront of their field there's no discrimination. You just have to be better than the rest, whether you're 20 or 50. >> I think this is demonstrably false, with a few rare exceptions. There is an age bias in our industry and it doesn't help anyone to pretend like it doesn't exist. In most startups and some company cultures it is worse, and in some company cultures it doesn't exisit at all, and in most companies it probably falls somewhere in between. I'm not saying that developers are unemployable after a certain age - they aren't, it's still very easy, relatively speaking, for them to find a job, but it might not be the job they want or the company they want to work for. Financinal independence gives them the freedom to pick and choose, or start their own company, rather than becoming sucked into slavery within a system that appreciates them progressively less and less each year.
nilkn 12y ago
I actually think more people should act as if their career is going to end in 20 years. Thinking in these terms really drives home what you need to do if you want actual financial independence. Even if the goal is not realistically attainable, it shows you exactly where you stand. Let's say you think $1M is good enough for your notion of financial independence. Well, how can you accumulate that amount in 20 years? One way would be to invest $2750/month. If you can manage an average annual return of 4%, you'll hit the $1M mark right after 20 years. If you start at 25 (giving you a buffer period after college to grow some roots), you'll be good by the time you're 45. Note that in this case, "financial independence" doesn't necessarily have to mean that you're wealthy enough to live your picture perfect life without ever working a day again. It could simply mean that you've reached a point where you don't need to save more and could take a 50% paycut without any serious long-term implications for your retirement. An example might be that you make low six figures up until age 45, surpass the $1M mark in investments, and then you get hit by ageism and your income drops by half for whatever reason. You're not going to be saving much anymore unless you make lifestyle changes, but you've still got the million bucks in the bank. The drop in income has impacted your ability to save and invest more, but it has had no effect on the savings you've already amassed, and it's still good enough to sustain your comfortable lifestyle with more modest savings.
- meowface 12y ago
  Keep in mind software dev salaries often aren't as high in states outside of CA and NY, especially when working for smaller companies and companies that aren't tech-centered. Saving $2750 per month would be far too difficult for many software devs in other parts of the US. I do agree that saving a lot early on is a good idea though.
  - nilkn 12y ago
    One big life hack is to learn to balance salary with cost of living. It isn't always about pursuing the highest possible salary, because that might mean you're paying most of it in rent. Consider a $75k salary in Texas. That's $4766/month net (or thereabout), due to lack of state income tax. Let's say you pay $1k/month in rent (very realistic for most of Texas). That leaves you with $3766. That $2750/month figure won't be too far off if you don't have any dependents and live frugally, especially if you take advantage of tax-advantaged savings (like a 401(k)). The thing is, you can make more than $75k in Texas, especially once you've got a few years of experience under your belt. So while I completely agree that it's not going to be attainable for everybody, I think it's not so far off as many might think.
jebblue 12y ago
>> I've been a software developer for 27 years and have encountered none of the "incredibly cruel" discriminations you suggest. It's definitely true and I see this often that many as they age don't bother to stay current, It happened to me. I did and do stay current, there is a perception among management, especially in UI development that only college grads get the new stuff. The old folks only know how to do back-end well is their perception. This is why enterprises fail, clueless management.

hawkharris 12y ago

As a 20-something developer, I appreciate and agree with your insights. Also, I give you credit for responding in a mature way to some of the overly harsh responses to your comment. I guess that some level of gruffness comes with the territory of HN's matter-of-fact debate culture.

megablast 12y ago

> Young developers should save 50% of their after tax income. As someone who travels overseas once or twice a year, goes out all the time, I still manage to save>50% of my income. I don't have a car, cycle everywhere, live in a great share house, always look for deals (for traveling and eating out), and stay in the cheaper hotels/bus it around.

hessenwolf 12y ago
Do you have a partner that agrees with that lifestyle? That is where my asceticism runs aground.
- warbastard 12y ago
  Exactly the same problem for me. It's hard to save when your partner doesn't want to do it for various reasons
- nnnnni 12y ago
  ...or live somewhere where it's possible to live that way.

YZF 12y ago

People should try to save early however for most people working a "normal" software development job being able to retire after working for 15 years is unrealistic. Learning to live frugally and to invest wisely are useful traits though. I've never switched jobs to make more money. In every situation where I switched a job my current employer was willing to match my offer. I will switch jobs to work with smarter people, to work on more interesting problems, to work with newer technologies, or to fight boredom. In theory I would switch to a job with lower pay to satisfy other requirements but luckily I never had to do so. I don't think there's much to the professional athlete analogy. There is virtually no "demand" for more professional athletes while the demand for good software developers is ever growing and is unlikely to show any sign of slowing down. There are cycles but the trend is up. It is also really hard to be a good software developer and requires a combination of aptitude and attitude. I work for a US startup and I know we do not discriminate by age (if anything older developers are over-represented). In companies like Google, Microsoft, Apple, more experienced developers (in their 40s and 50s) are pretty well represented (keep in mind that as you go back in time the % developers is naturally less simply because the industry was much much smaller). Saying that I realize that in some places simply being a bit older would be seen as a poor fit and definitely someone who is just starting to code in their 50s is not going to be looked at the same as someone out of MIT. Another thing to realize is that software development is an immensely wide field. I think your advice is reasonable for someone who has only started writing code in school, works in relatively "easy" areas where a lot of expertise isn't required, is really in it for the money and approaches things with that sort of cold success driven attitude. People who have talent, go deep into their fields of study and are highly motivated are probably looking at a much longer successful career. [EDIT: In other words it depends on what types of software you work on, your abilities and passion, and your further ability to maintain your abilities and passion and expand your knowledge.] That said there's absolutely no way to project what the world economy or job market will look like 20 years from today. There are likely to be pretty big changes. One can imagine a much larger % of the population working remotely. One can imagine some breakthroughs related to aging that will make the entire age issue moot. Who knows. My advice to juniors is to strive to be the best at what you do. If you're the best you'll always have a job. Professional athletes don't always stop working when they're 30-something, they can become a higher paid coach. They can work on TV. Lots of options. By the way the average age of athletes has also been creeping up.

pjc50 12y ago

save 50% of their after tax income That rules out living in SF or London, for example.

gaius 12y ago

Yes and no. Saving cash makes little sense in the current financial environment, once you have your rainy day fund of 3 months living expenses. Buy an apartment or a house and put the extra cash into overpayments, you can't retire after 15 years but you could own your home free and clear.

AppSec 12y ago
Keeping it cash? No. Putting it in a 401K, IRA, or market based account certainly does have much greater benefits. And of course, once that grows you can most certainly retire after 15 years. Or at least be financially independent and choose your working environment.