4 ms·

Again, it's not society which "causes people to starve and be homeless". Hunting and gathering cannot support seven billion people; it is the accumulation of ca

Again, it's not society which "causes people to starve and be homeless". Hunting and gathering cannot support seven billion people; it is the accumulation of capital in forms such as advanced agriculture that allows the food production that currently sustains the world population. If all capitalists and corporations ceased to exist, a huge proportion of the world population would starve due to the collapse in the global structure of production. The means of production have to be produced by someone. How is it theft for capitalists to own the means of production when they produced it? And if you say well the workers produced it, the workers only agreed to work for pay, not for a stake in it (else they'd be investors/partners, not just workers). Here's the thing: even with just two people interacting without any society around them whatsoever, it's possible for one to agree to work for the other for payment of some sort but without claiming an ownership stake in whatever's produced (i.e. common employment contract). To make such a thing illegal, you must necessarily introduce violence into the system, to prevent these two people from carrying out a mutually agreeable exchange.

jahaja 12y ago
It's of course possible that two people on a "level playing field" agree to an employmeent like agreement - fair enough, one is providing the other with a service - but could do without it, as such he or she can make sure that the compensation is fair. However this "level playing field" doesn't exist today. As such this agreement is not based on a rational choice, but a coerced one, where the one person got the capital and the other person needs the capital. As such the power is with the capital and the compensation is much less determined by the worker. Furthermore the person without the capital can only choose between different people offering compensation against labor. This person can't just do without it.
- logicchains 12y ago
  When you speak of a 'coerced' choice, it's not coerced in the normal sense (coerced by a person), it's coerced by nature. If the person doesn't get work, doesn't find some means of acquiring goods produced by other people, they'll starve; this is not the result of anybody threatening to starve them, it's simply the result of there not being enough food lying around to eat. To state or imply that the starving person has some form of right to the food produced by others, one must make a moral judgement. It hence becomes an issue of moral philosophy as to whether the fact that a person "just can't do without" the job has any bearing on the situation. If one assumes people owe others things by virtue of having those things (or by virtue of the others not having those things), then one can say it's coercion to refuse to give someone food one owns unless they perform work. If however one assumes that people owe others nothing apart from what they've specifically agreed to give them, then there's no coercion taking place. The pro-market position is that assuming people owe others things they haven't promised them necessarily entails coercion. If society things Joe Rich owes something to Bob Poor, but Joe Rich doesn't want to give it, then making him give it anyway necessarily requires violence or the threat thereof against Joe Rich. Through this lens, if Bob Poor starves then this doesn't necessarily imply anyone's committed violence or coercion against him, instead it's a simple result of the combination of nature's scarcity and his inability or unwillingness to do something for others in exchange for food or the purchasing power to acquire it.
  - jahaja 12y ago
    I often find it amusing when people say that swearing indicates a lacking vocabulary. I'd argue however that this is much more present when discussing economics and philosophical topics like this one, where a simple argumentation is replied to with an unnecessarily deep discourse into mathematics (usually in economics) or philosophy. Anyway, back to your reponse. You argue that it's coerced by nature. Which I believe is false; these conditions are derived from political decisions and uphold by political institutions. Private property is probably the most glaring example of such a political decision. Additionally, it's no longer true that scarcity is the main cause that people starve. I don't understand why it's relevant if a starving person has a right to the food produced by others; whether or not this true doesn't change the premise of the discussion, namely whether wage labor is a free choice or a coerced one (albeit indirectly) given the premise of modern society. And regardings morals in general: Hopefully peoples ideological beliefs is based on what they think is right and wrong. Unfortunately I think this is becoming less and less so, but that's another discussion.
    - logicchains 12y ago
      Simple argumentation often elicits a complex response when the issue itself is complex, as simple arguments can miss important elements of the issue. The difference here is regarding whether private property is considered a political institution (as you're considering it) or more a natural social institution (like language). This is also the essential difference between right anarchism and left anarchism. The right of a starving person to food produced by others is relevant to determining whether wage labour is free or 'coerced'. If they have no right to food produced by others, then modern society isn't forcing them to have any less food than they otherwise would, hence I would argue that it's not accurate to say society is 'coercing' them. In the sense that coercion is defined as threatening to make someone's life worse off if they don't do what you want them to (which is the definition I was using). Here's a thought experiment to identify libertarian/right anarchist morality. Imagine you're walking in a park, and see Rich Uncle Bob, who has just invented a cure for eugitis, walking along carrying sacks of the cure. You also see Poorman Joe lying on the ground nearby, soon to die of eugitis. You have a weapon. Assuming it was legally allowed and you were guaranteed success, would you threaten Rich Uncle Bob with the weapon to make him give some of the cure to Poorman Joe, saving Joe's life? People with personal moral philosophies that are more pro-property would generally say no. Now change Poorman Joe to one's sick spouse/child/parent. Generally only libertarians or market anarchists would still answer no in this case. I think that scenario acts as a microcosm for the general differences in moral beliefs between pro- and anti- market types.
dublinben 12y ago
>If all capitalists and corporations ceased to exist, a huge proportion of the world population would starve due to the collapse in the global structure of production. This is a straw man. Organized production would not cease to exist if there were no exploitative capitalists. Cooperative businesses exist today, and prove there is an alternative model. >To make such a thing illegal Anarchism does not propose to "make things illegal." That belies a fundamental misunderstanding of anarchism and what it stands for. >mutually agreeable exchange A mutually agreeable exchange does not leave one person with a fraction of the value of their labor, and another with unearned profit. Such an exchange can only happen under the oppression of a capitalist system, where laborers are forced to sell themselves to capitalists.
- logicchains 12y ago
  >Cooperative businesses exist today, and prove there is an alternative model. Does the dominance of non-cooperative businesses today suggest that cooperative business are less efficient? I mean, there aren't laws preventing the creation and operation of cooperative businesses, so if they're not less efficient then why aren't there any in the Fortune 500? If they are less efficient, this would mean that in a free society businesses formed in the traditional way would come to dominate. If anarchism doesn't propose to "make things illegal", then how would it prevent people who wished to from selling their labour to employers in the traditional business model? >A mutually agreeable exchange does not leave one person with a fraction of the value of their labor, and another with unearned profit. That depends on how value is determined. The judgement you're making relies on the labour theory of value, that value is determined by the amount of labour a person put into something. Morality is however an inherently subjective thing: there's no objective way to say that the labour theory of value is superior to any other theory of value. If value is subjective, then the value of an action depends on how other people value it. In which case the value of a person's work can be inferred from what other people are willing to give them for it; the more they are willing to give/pay the person, the more valuable that person's work must be to them. If the worker was able to produce a given amount of value without the aid of capitalists, there's nothing to stop him doing so. The fact that he chooses to work for capitalists hence implies that access to the capitalist's capital allows him to produce more value than he could otherwise produce. How is the capitalist's profit from this unearned? If they had not accumulated the capital in the first place, had not saved instead of consuming, had not invested their money and taken the risks that that entails, then the worker wouldn't have access to the capital that allows him to produce more and would necessarily be producing less (as if he could produce the same amount without access to the capitalist's capital, he wouldn't be working for the capitalist in the first place).

jahaja 12y ago

It's of course possible that two people on a "level playing field" agree to an employmeent like agreement - fair enough, one is providing the other with a service - but could do without it, as such he or she can make sure that the compensation is fair. However this "level playing field" doesn't exist today. As such this agreement is not based on a rational choice, but a coerced one, where the one person got the capital and the other person needs the capital. As such the power is with the capital and the compensation is much less determined by the worker. Furthermore the person without the capital can only choose between different people offering compensation against labor. This person can't just do without it.

logicchains 12y ago
When you speak of a 'coerced' choice, it's not coerced in the normal sense (coerced by a person), it's coerced by nature. If the person doesn't get work, doesn't find some means of acquiring goods produced by other people, they'll starve; this is not the result of anybody threatening to starve them, it's simply the result of there not being enough food lying around to eat. To state or imply that the starving person has some form of right to the food produced by others, one must make a moral judgement. It hence becomes an issue of moral philosophy as to whether the fact that a person "just can't do without" the job has any bearing on the situation. If one assumes people owe others things by virtue of having those things (or by virtue of the others not having those things), then one can say it's coercion to refuse to give someone food one owns unless they perform work. If however one assumes that people owe others nothing apart from what they've specifically agreed to give them, then there's no coercion taking place. The pro-market position is that assuming people owe others things they haven't promised them necessarily entails coercion. If society things Joe Rich owes something to Bob Poor, but Joe Rich doesn't want to give it, then making him give it anyway necessarily requires violence or the threat thereof against Joe Rich. Through this lens, if Bob Poor starves then this doesn't necessarily imply anyone's committed violence or coercion against him, instead it's a simple result of the combination of nature's scarcity and his inability or unwillingness to do something for others in exchange for food or the purchasing power to acquire it.
- jahaja 12y ago
  I often find it amusing when people say that swearing indicates a lacking vocabulary. I'd argue however that this is much more present when discussing economics and philosophical topics like this one, where a simple argumentation is replied to with an unnecessarily deep discourse into mathematics (usually in economics) or philosophy. Anyway, back to your reponse. You argue that it's coerced by nature. Which I believe is false; these conditions are derived from political decisions and uphold by political institutions. Private property is probably the most glaring example of such a political decision. Additionally, it's no longer true that scarcity is the main cause that people starve. I don't understand why it's relevant if a starving person has a right to the food produced by others; whether or not this true doesn't change the premise of the discussion, namely whether wage labor is a free choice or a coerced one (albeit indirectly) given the premise of modern society. And regardings morals in general: Hopefully peoples ideological beliefs is based on what they think is right and wrong. Unfortunately I think this is becoming less and less so, but that's another discussion.
  - logicchains 12y ago
    Simple argumentation often elicits a complex response when the issue itself is complex, as simple arguments can miss important elements of the issue. The difference here is regarding whether private property is considered a political institution (as you're considering it) or more a natural social institution (like language). This is also the essential difference between right anarchism and left anarchism. The right of a starving person to food produced by others is relevant to determining whether wage labour is free or 'coerced'. If they have no right to food produced by others, then modern society isn't forcing them to have any less food than they otherwise would, hence I would argue that it's not accurate to say society is 'coercing' them. In the sense that coercion is defined as threatening to make someone's life worse off if they don't do what you want them to (which is the definition I was using). Here's a thought experiment to identify libertarian/right anarchist morality. Imagine you're walking in a park, and see Rich Uncle Bob, who has just invented a cure for eugitis, walking along carrying sacks of the cure. You also see Poorman Joe lying on the ground nearby, soon to die of eugitis. You have a weapon. Assuming it was legally allowed and you were guaranteed success, would you threaten Rich Uncle Bob with the weapon to make him give some of the cure to Poorman Joe, saving Joe's life? People with personal moral philosophies that are more pro-property would generally say no. Now change Poorman Joe to one's sick spouse/child/parent. Generally only libertarians or market anarchists would still answer no in this case. I think that scenario acts as a microcosm for the general differences in moral beliefs between pro- and anti- market types.

dublinben 12y ago

>If all capitalists and corporations ceased to exist, a huge proportion of the world population would starve due to the collapse in the global structure of production. This is a straw man. Organized production would not cease to exist if there were no exploitative capitalists. Cooperative businesses exist today, and prove there is an alternative model. >To make such a thing illegal Anarchism does not propose to "make things illegal." That belies a fundamental misunderstanding of anarchism and what it stands for. >mutually agreeable exchange A mutually agreeable exchange does not leave one person with a fraction of the value of their labor, and another with unearned profit. Such an exchange can only happen under the oppression of a capitalist system, where laborers are forced to sell themselves to capitalists.

logicchains 12y ago
>Cooperative businesses exist today, and prove there is an alternative model. Does the dominance of non-cooperative businesses today suggest that cooperative business are less efficient? I mean, there aren't laws preventing the creation and operation of cooperative businesses, so if they're not less efficient then why aren't there any in the Fortune 500? If they are less efficient, this would mean that in a free society businesses formed in the traditional way would come to dominate. If anarchism doesn't propose to "make things illegal", then how would it prevent people who wished to from selling their labour to employers in the traditional business model? >A mutually agreeable exchange does not leave one person with a fraction of the value of their labor, and another with unearned profit. That depends on how value is determined. The judgement you're making relies on the labour theory of value, that value is determined by the amount of labour a person put into something. Morality is however an inherently subjective thing: there's no objective way to say that the labour theory of value is superior to any other theory of value. If value is subjective, then the value of an action depends on how other people value it. In which case the value of a person's work can be inferred from what other people are willing to give them for it; the more they are willing to give/pay the person, the more valuable that person's work must be to them. If the worker was able to produce a given amount of value without the aid of capitalists, there's nothing to stop him doing so. The fact that he chooses to work for capitalists hence implies that access to the capitalist's capital allows him to produce more value than he could otherwise produce. How is the capitalist's profit from this unearned? If they had not accumulated the capital in the first place, had not saved instead of consuming, had not invested their money and taken the risks that that entails, then the worker wouldn't have access to the capital that allows him to produce more and would necessarily be producing less (as if he could produce the same amount without access to the capitalist's capital, he wouldn't be working for the capitalist in the first place).