7 ms·

You don't. Or if you do, you're lucky and/or you wait in line for them. Good developers don't use oDesk to find freelance work. They have a good enough reput

by noodle 12y ago

You don't. Or if you do, you're lucky and/or you wait in line for them. Good developers don't use oDesk to find freelance work. They have a good enough reputation to find work through their professional network. oDesk is a race to the bottom where you compete on price instead of skills. Its a market for lemons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons) I'm a contractor and I wouldn't touch oDesk with a 10 ft pole.

null_ptr 12y ago
I'd like to give freelancing a shot at some point. How would you build a reputation network coming from a corporate background?
- themodelplumber 12y ago
  I don't know what kind of freelancing you plan to do, but for me the method of moving to freelancing that worked (after two failed attempts) was connecting with veteran freelancers as quickly as possible. I became the technical resource for a creative agency by just calling them up and asking them if they needed technical help. From there it was a matter of being responsive to their communications, helping them look smart in front of their clients by feeding them ideas, and giving them flexibility--trying not to say "no" too often, even after seeing their pie-in-the-sky Photoshop mockups. Since then, I've expanded my opportunities by reaching out to my competition to build friendships and explore ways of working together. I found my (limited) corporate background a bonus because I was used to working on a relatively productive team (edit: so I could basically pull a team of freelancers together and bid on a large project as a group of independents), and a liability because I tended to think "I could always go back to the corporate world" instead of taking every opportunity to figure out how I might make self-employment work. It wasn't until I hired a business coach (a former SV corporate guy himself) that I started to learn how to make the whole thing psychologically/emotionally sustainable. There are opportunities to write your own failure narrative around every corner. :-)
  - speeder 12y ago
    Hey, I am starting myself and this is one of the best posts I ever saw on the subject, can I be your friend? ( from my point of view, you are a successful freelancer! )
    - themodelplumber 12y ago
      Ha. :-) Yeah, no problem. porkfriedriceplease [de] yahoo
  - FlopV 12y ago
    I'm in the corporate environment myself and definitely interested in seeing what I can do on the side. Could I get in touch with you for some insights?
    - themodelplumber 12y ago
      Sure thing. porkfriedriceplease [symbol] yahoo
  - devb0x 12y ago
    do you blog? where?
    - themodelplumber 12y ago
      marccarson.com/articles (occasional freelancer-oriented content)
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
MortenK 12y ago
This is entirely wrong. You are comparing US and Western European high-cost market with the lower cost markets of Eastern Europe, Asia and South America. Yes, a contractor in a high-cost market, offering his services on oDesk won't be top caliber, because he should be able to get local contracts with much higher rates. But contractors in lower cost countries are just as capable, while charging one third to one fifth of Western European / US prices. While this sounds low, the living cost, tax rates and average salaries are such, that oDesk freelancing becomes very appealing for a person in such a location. A specific example: A frontend dev salary in Eastern Europe (full-time position) of 3.000 USD a month is quite decent. On oDesk, he can charge 25 to 30 USD pr. Hour. If he is good, he will end up with full allocation, and thus a salary of 4000 to 5400 USD pr. Month given a 160 hour work month. Additionally, he also has the personal benefit of working 100% from home, at hours which he usually has some control over. Being unable to find good people to work with on oDesk and similar sites, is due to lack of experience in outsourcing, not because it is a market for lemons.
- Iftheshoefits 12y ago
  $62,000 per year ($30 USD/hr) is actually an average salary (and an excellent entry-level salary) in many places in the US for the kinds of development people who use oDesk and elance are looking for. Hell, on one of these threads some time ago somebody in the south bay area was gushing with pride about how he pays his developers "well" at around $90k/yr ($45 USD). That aside, given the ease of access to information the internet age has brought, I think it's more likely that hourly rates and skill aren't as coupled to geography as you suggest. A skilled developer even in Eastern Europe, if he is at all aware of his own skill, is likely to charge as much as any western developer unless he's hopelessly ignorant or just plain desperate. The rest are as average or below-average as their rate indicates.
  - MortenK 12y ago
    I don't understand your first point sorry. About the second: A few remote developers in low-cost countries can pull off EU/US like rates. But these are exceptional guys who typically have worked on-location as a contractor in ex. London or Berlin for a couple of years, and have proven themselves to specific clients. That is a very uncommon situation though. The reason offshore developers can't charge the same as their EU/US counterparts, is not ignorance or desperation. Rather, the majority of companies' have no reason to hire a guy in Ukraine versus the guy around the corner, if the price is equal. Again, at least unless the client already know the specific guy in Ukraine. Then it's a whole different ball game.
sergiotapia 12y ago
Completely disagree. I've been freelancing on oDesk exclusively for 2 years now and I make a great living. Don't be stupid and set your rates to $10/hr, you're obviously going to compete with the bottom of the barrel and work with shady clients. Up your rates and suddenly shady guys don't contact you, and good clients recognise talent and you get a good paying job.
- noodle 12y ago
  Let me put it like this. I did an oDesk rate analysis. 5 star developers in my niche charge SIGNIFICANTLY less than I am right now, and I'm considering raising rates. You might be making a fine living. But I suspect that if you're a good developer on oDesk, you'd be making a lot more off of oDesk.
  - sergiotapia 12y ago
    Let's put it this way. Working in my country, Bolivia - I used to make $X/month. Switching to oDesk and raising my rates immediately helped me land $X+400%/month. Immediately. It was just astounding to me. I'm sure I could earn more on other websites, and as a matter of fact I'm currently attempting to join TopTal.com I've heard great things about that site and the way they operate.
    - noodle 12y ago
      You should raise your rates and get off of oDesk. Though it sounds like that's what you're about to do, with TopTal. If you're a reasonably experienced Rails developer with strong English skills and you're not charging at least 100USD/hour, you're underpaid.

by noodle 12y ago

null_ptr 12y ago

I'd like to give freelancing a shot at some point. How would you build a reputation network coming from a corporate background?

themodelplumber 12y ago
I don't know what kind of freelancing you plan to do, but for me the method of moving to freelancing that worked (after two failed attempts) was connecting with veteran freelancers as quickly as possible. I became the technical resource for a creative agency by just calling them up and asking them if they needed technical help. From there it was a matter of being responsive to their communications, helping them look smart in front of their clients by feeding them ideas, and giving them flexibility--trying not to say "no" too often, even after seeing their pie-in-the-sky Photoshop mockups. Since then, I've expanded my opportunities by reaching out to my competition to build friendships and explore ways of working together. I found my (limited) corporate background a bonus because I was used to working on a relatively productive team (edit: so I could basically pull a team of freelancers together and bid on a large project as a group of independents), and a liability because I tended to think "I could always go back to the corporate world" instead of taking every opportunity to figure out how I might make self-employment work. It wasn't until I hired a business coach (a former SV corporate guy himself) that I started to learn how to make the whole thing psychologically/emotionally sustainable. There are opportunities to write your own failure narrative around every corner. :-)
- speeder 12y ago
  Hey, I am starting myself and this is one of the best posts I ever saw on the subject, can I be your friend? ( from my point of view, you are a successful freelancer! )
  - themodelplumber 12y ago
    Ha. :-) Yeah, no problem. porkfriedriceplease [de] yahoo
- FlopV 12y ago
  I'm in the corporate environment myself and definitely interested in seeing what I can do on the side. Could I get in touch with you for some insights?
  - themodelplumber 12y ago
    Sure thing. porkfriedriceplease [symbol] yahoo
- devb0x 12y ago
  do you blog? where?
  - themodelplumber 12y ago
    marccarson.com/articles (occasional freelancer-oriented content)

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

MortenK 12y ago

This is entirely wrong. You are comparing US and Western European high-cost market with the lower cost markets of Eastern Europe, Asia and South America. Yes, a contractor in a high-cost market, offering his services on oDesk won't be top caliber, because he should be able to get local contracts with much higher rates. But contractors in lower cost countries are just as capable, while charging one third to one fifth of Western European / US prices. While this sounds low, the living cost, tax rates and average salaries are such, that oDesk freelancing becomes very appealing for a person in such a location. A specific example: A frontend dev salary in Eastern Europe (full-time position) of 3.000 USD a month is quite decent. On oDesk, he can charge 25 to 30 USD pr. Hour. If he is good, he will end up with full allocation, and thus a salary of 4000 to 5400 USD pr. Month given a 160 hour work month. Additionally, he also has the personal benefit of working 100% from home, at hours which he usually has some control over. Being unable to find good people to work with on oDesk and similar sites, is due to lack of experience in outsourcing, not because it is a market for lemons.

Iftheshoefits 12y ago
$62,000 per year ($30 USD/hr) is actually an average salary (and an excellent entry-level salary) in many places in the US for the kinds of development people who use oDesk and elance are looking for. Hell, on one of these threads some time ago somebody in the south bay area was gushing with pride about how he pays his developers "well" at around $90k/yr ($45 USD). That aside, given the ease of access to information the internet age has brought, I think it's more likely that hourly rates and skill aren't as coupled to geography as you suggest. A skilled developer even in Eastern Europe, if he is at all aware of his own skill, is likely to charge as much as any western developer unless he's hopelessly ignorant or just plain desperate. The rest are as average or below-average as their rate indicates.
- MortenK 12y ago
  I don't understand your first point sorry. About the second: A few remote developers in low-cost countries can pull off EU/US like rates. But these are exceptional guys who typically have worked on-location as a contractor in ex. London or Berlin for a couple of years, and have proven themselves to specific clients. That is a very uncommon situation though. The reason offshore developers can't charge the same as their EU/US counterparts, is not ignorance or desperation. Rather, the majority of companies' have no reason to hire a guy in Ukraine versus the guy around the corner, if the price is equal. Again, at least unless the client already know the specific guy in Ukraine. Then it's a whole different ball game.

sergiotapia 12y ago

Completely disagree. I've been freelancing on oDesk exclusively for 2 years now and I make a great living. Don't be stupid and set your rates to $10/hr, you're obviously going to compete with the bottom of the barrel and work with shady clients. Up your rates and suddenly shady guys don't contact you, and good clients recognise talent and you get a good paying job.

noodle 12y ago
Let me put it like this. I did an oDesk rate analysis. 5 star developers in my niche charge SIGNIFICANTLY less than I am right now, and I'm considering raising rates. You might be making a fine living. But I suspect that if you're a good developer on oDesk, you'd be making a lot more off of oDesk.
- sergiotapia 12y ago
  Let's put it this way. Working in my country, Bolivia - I used to make $X/month. Switching to oDesk and raising my rates immediately helped me land $X+400%/month. Immediately. It was just astounding to me. I'm sure I could earn more on other websites, and as a matter of fact I'm currently attempting to join TopTal.com I've heard great things about that site and the way they operate.
  - noodle 12y ago
    You should raise your rates and get off of oDesk. Though it sounds like that's what you're about to do, with TopTal. If you're a reasonably experienced Rails developer with strong English skills and you're not charging at least 100USD/hour, you're underpaid.