4 ms·

I'm curious, are there growing initiatives to make every career gender/race balanced? Because it seems like we're fixated on getting female representation in co

by colmvp 12y ago

I'm curious, are there growing initiatives to make every career gender/race balanced? Because it seems like we're fixated on getting female representation in computer/mathematical occupations from 26.1% to 50%. Yet there are lot other occupations which have pretty low representations, i.e. only 1.6% of architects are black, 0.1% of judges/magistrates are Asian, only 1.8% of automotive repairers are women, only 5.2% of truck drivers are women, 19.7% of social workers are men, 5.2% of childcare workers are men, 3.8% of physicians/surgeons are Hispanic, etc.

bennyg 12y ago
It may not be socially acceptable to ask these questions but I wonder the same thing fairly frequently.
skybrian 12y ago
Well hopefully there are, but that's up to the people in those professions.
jiggy2011 12y ago
If we have more women in STEM then we must have less men in STEM unless we grow the total number of STEM jobs by the same amount. So those men who would otherwise be in STEM must move to other professions, which means they either move into other male dominated professions and make them even more unbalanced or there must be an equivalent push to move them into a female dominated industry. If we do the latter then a possible outcome is a system where we are allocating people to jobs based primarily on demographics rather than interest or aptitude.
- mrgn 12y ago
  Diversity isn't a zero sum game. STEM is one of the fastest growing professional fields, meaning more people--of any gender--will need to fill those jobs. The goal is gender balance, there's no need to fear that a woman or a person of color accepting a newly created STEM job will somehow push a white man out of his existing position. Let's be realistic here.
  - jiggy2011 12y ago
    Perhaps, but I could take these arguments more seriously if western countries weren't so excited about issuing more visas for tech workers. It's also possible that we have a tech bubble that people are wisely avoiding.
    - mrgn 12y ago
      For that to make sense you'd really have to believe that the US will need fewer, not more, STEM jobs in the future. The vast majority of educated STEM workers and engineers are completely removed from venture-funded Silicon Valley startups and any potential 'tech bubble.'
      - jiggy2011 12y ago
        It depends on what ratio you seek and what growth you think you will get. For example if you aim for a 50% gender split but only get 10% growth.
tieTYT 12y ago
Where'd you get these numbers?
- adamnemecek 12y ago
  I'm guessing Bureau of Labor Statistics. http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.pdf http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.pdf
martythemaniak 12y ago
One thing I haven't seen explicitly stated in this whole debate is that workplace diversity is very much a zero-sum game. If Google / Tech Sector / Random subgroup of the economy is to be representative of the population, those workers have to come from some other equality lop-sided subgroup. There are structural issues which can cause the workforce as a whole to not be representative of the population - lack of opportunities for poorer people / minorities or lower participation by women due to child-rearing, etc. Even after accounting for those, I do appreciate the sentiment and effort, but most of what I've seen is empty belly-aching.
mrgn 12y ago
No, and the answer why should be blindingly obvious to any intelligent person: computer engineering (as opposed to your chosen examples of truck driving childcare, and auto repair) is among the most well-paid, economically influential, and entrepreneurial profession today, and will become increasingly so in the future. Gender and race representation is simply of less concern for less aspirational, lower-paid professions that do not require extensive education or access to technical resources.
- enraged_camel 12y ago
  This is exactly it. When people say shit like, "why aren't we encouraging women to become garbage collectors because that profession is entirely male dominated" they just demonstrate that they haven't thought about the issue thoroughly and they think gender balance is something to aspire towards just for its own sake. edit: Thanks for the downvotes. I must have hit a sensitive spot.
- adamnemecek 12y ago
  So it's about equality and equal gender representation only in well paying professions? Doesn't sound all that equal to me.
  - mrgn 12y ago
    Perhaps you didn't read closely, but the fact that computer engineering is a well-paid profession is only a result of its demand, influence and importance to the future economy. Devoting equal time and resources encouraging people to abandon higher education in order to pursue unskilled labor may sound like "equality" to you, but hardly seems like a sound strategy for the economy or any industry.
    - adamnemecek 12y ago
      Well but all these initiatives are not so much about encouraging all people, but mostly women it appears.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
DanBC 12y ago
Yes, there are programs to make other occupations diverse. This point has been made very many times on HN before -- every time a thread like this happens someone will make exactly the same point as you. I'm surprised that you managed to get statistics about the disparities without also finding information about the various programs to increase diversity. They need to publicise those better.

by colmvp 12y ago

bennyg 12y ago

It may not be socially acceptable to ask these questions but I wonder the same thing fairly frequently.

skybrian 12y ago

Well hopefully there are, but that's up to the people in those professions.

jiggy2011 12y ago

If we have more women in STEM then we must have less men in STEM unless we grow the total number of STEM jobs by the same amount. So those men who would otherwise be in STEM must move to other professions, which means they either move into other male dominated professions and make them even more unbalanced or there must be an equivalent push to move them into a female dominated industry. If we do the latter then a possible outcome is a system where we are allocating people to jobs based primarily on demographics rather than interest or aptitude.

mrgn 12y ago
Diversity isn't a zero sum game. STEM is one of the fastest growing professional fields, meaning more people--of any gender--will need to fill those jobs. The goal is gender balance, there's no need to fear that a woman or a person of color accepting a newly created STEM job will somehow push a white man out of his existing position. Let's be realistic here.
- jiggy2011 12y ago
  Perhaps, but I could take these arguments more seriously if western countries weren't so excited about issuing more visas for tech workers. It's also possible that we have a tech bubble that people are wisely avoiding.
  - mrgn 12y ago
    For that to make sense you'd really have to believe that the US will need fewer, not more, STEM jobs in the future. The vast majority of educated STEM workers and engineers are completely removed from venture-funded Silicon Valley startups and any potential 'tech bubble.'
    - jiggy2011 12y ago
      It depends on what ratio you seek and what growth you think you will get. For example if you aim for a 50% gender split but only get 10% growth.

tieTYT 12y ago

Where'd you get these numbers?

adamnemecek 12y ago
I'm guessing Bureau of Labor Statistics. http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.pdf http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11.pdf

martythemaniak 12y ago

One thing I haven't seen explicitly stated in this whole debate is that workplace diversity is very much a zero-sum game. If Google / Tech Sector / Random subgroup of the economy is to be representative of the population, those workers have to come from some other equality lop-sided subgroup. There are structural issues which can cause the workforce as a whole to not be representative of the population - lack of opportunities for poorer people / minorities or lower participation by women due to child-rearing, etc. Even after accounting for those, I do appreciate the sentiment and effort, but most of what I've seen is empty belly-aching.

mrgn 12y ago

No, and the answer why should be blindingly obvious to any intelligent person: computer engineering (as opposed to your chosen examples of truck driving childcare, and auto repair) is among the most well-paid, economically influential, and entrepreneurial profession today, and will become increasingly so in the future. Gender and race representation is simply of less concern for less aspirational, lower-paid professions that do not require extensive education or access to technical resources.

enraged_camel 12y ago
This is exactly it. When people say shit like, "why aren't we encouraging women to become garbage collectors because that profession is entirely male dominated" they just demonstrate that they haven't thought about the issue thoroughly and they think gender balance is something to aspire towards just for its own sake. edit: Thanks for the downvotes. I must have hit a sensitive spot.
adamnemecek 12y ago
So it's about equality and equal gender representation only in well paying professions? Doesn't sound all that equal to me.
- mrgn 12y ago
  Perhaps you didn't read closely, but the fact that computer engineering is a well-paid profession is only a result of its demand, influence and importance to the future economy. Devoting equal time and resources encouraging people to abandon higher education in order to pursue unskilled labor may sound like "equality" to you, but hardly seems like a sound strategy for the economy or any industry.
  - adamnemecek 12y ago
    Well but all these initiatives are not so much about encouraging all people, but mostly women it appears.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]

DanBC 12y ago

Yes, there are programs to make other occupations diverse. This point has been made very many times on HN before -- every time a thread like this happens someone will make exactly the same point as you. I'm surprised that you managed to get statistics about the disparities without also finding information about the various programs to increase diversity. They need to publicise those better.