4 ms·

Yes. The only people in my social circle I know that didn't boomerang were STEM graduates. http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmarshallcrotty/2012/03/01/most-coll

Yes. The only people in my social circle I know that didn't boomerang were STEM graduates. http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmarshallcrotty/2012/03/01/most-college-grads-cant-find-work-in-their-field-is-a-management-degree-the-answer/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmarshallcrotty/2012/03/01/m... 60% can't find a job in their field isn't a "motivational problem" or a "I picked the wrong degree problem". It is a general, widespread economic problem. If your assumptions require more than 10% of people to be incompetent, your assumptions are wrong.

ChuckMcM 12y ago
I get the 'I can't find a job opening in the area I'm trained/passionate about' but what I would like to understand is whether or not that includes "I can't create a job in the area I am trained/passionate about." I have coached a number of folks who seemed to feel strangely disempowered, which is to say that the world had to change (job opening appears, company moves to their area, etc) in order for them to make progress on their goals. I've had some success at simplifying the question using the common trick of assuming solutions to the presumptive problems. So for example starting with "Ok lets stipulate that there is a million dollars in a bank vault that is paying you $1,200 a month in 'free' money. And you're living in an area where that pays all your food, rent, and gas. Now, what do you want to do with your time?" That gets us past blaming "the economy" and taking ownership of what they want to do. It is a different way of thinking, but it gets out of the rut of 'answer' based thinking. Life is like riding a train that you know is on a track with a bridge out over a 1000' chasm. When the train gets there, it will fall into the chasm, and everyone on board will die. Given that every train you could take from a station has this same "feature" what train do you pick? Who do you pick to ride with you? What places does the train need to go through before it gets to the missing bridge? Sometimes it isn't as complicated as what do you want to do with your life, it is simply what can you do today that is fulfilling to you?
- opendais 12y ago
  > "I can't create a job in the area I am trained/passionate about." A) Demand B) Access to Capital If you can't find an employer, there is likely insufficient demand. As someone who "created his job" initially, I was badly underpaid for the first 18 months and got sick of dealing with it even once my income grew to a "normal rate". I think you are looking at this from the perspective of someone who is going to be in the top 50% of a large field and be successful, no matter the economic situation. I think most people aren't in that top 50%.
  - ChuckMcM 12y ago
    Can you say more about this? "As someone who 'created his job' initially, I was badly underpaid for the first 18 months and got sick of dealing with it even once my income grew to a 'normal rate'." I think it is awesome that you went from 'no job in your area of expertise' to 'normal income' in 18 months. I have a huge amount of respect for that, I am looking for clarity on the 'got sick of dealing with it' part. What were you sick of? I have never commissioned a survey on it but my experience from undergraduate to career was that there was a 100% correlation between passion for something and top 50% of people who do that thing. Every student I met at USC that was passionate about electrical engineering was in the top 50% of their graduating class, every clerk, salesperson, engineer, gardner, taxi driver, artist, and writer I've ever met who was passionate about what they were doing, did it better than most. That observation has been pretty foundational in my thinking about life and happiness. I would be intrigued to find a counter example.
    - opendais 12y ago
      > I think it is awesome that you went from 'no job in your area of expertise' to 'normal income' in 18 months. I'm pretty sure my outcome so far is 50%+ luck and I don't know if I'll be able to sustain it forever. > I am looking for clarity on the 'got sick of dealing with it' part. What were you sick of? Consulting/Contracting work [my only option with $0 in capital] requires soft skills in dealing with people. The majority of my personal failings all relate to soft skills. 1) I've got a tendency to provide too much information rather than too little. 2) I tend to have poor communication with non-technical people [aka clients]. While I could blame it on them, the fact remains it was vital to my income on that course and therefore truly on me. 3) I'm a bit of an odd duck socially, even by programmer standards. 4) I don't have a poker face when annoyed/irritated/etc. I also have poor control over my tone in such situations. Coupled with #1 & #2 this tends to lead to a much higher client turnover than most consultants/contractors experience [I could be wrong, but I don't think so]. 5) I was able to get a "normal job" and I prefer it. However, there is still one older engineer who needles me about #2. ;) > I have never commissioned a survey on it but my experience from undergraduate to career was that there was a 100% correlation between passion for something and top 50% of people who do that thing. Every student I met at USC that was passionate about electrical engineering was in the top 50% of their graduating class, every clerk, salesperson, engineer, gardner, taxi driver, artist, and writer I've ever met who was passionate about what they were doing, did it better than most. That observation has been pretty foundational in my thinking about life and happiness. I would be intrigued to find a counter example. You may be right. I don't think I'm in the top 50% of software developers, I am probably in the top 65%. EDIT: A perfect example of #2: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7921042 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7921042 I wasn't sufficiently clear about what I meant by "market rates" which leads to him launching into an explanation that [I think] he realized was not needed when he basically agreed with another poster about the $ figure quoted in the article. This is due to the fact I didn't explicitly define "market rates" as the amount the person received on offer in the article.
wil421 12y ago
>"I picked the wrong degree problem". I would argue this point. Many people I know or worked at my college jobs just plain chose the wrong path. Creative writing degrees, Drama degrees, or even one poor girl with over 100K in debt from an Opera degree. Working as a waiter I even encountered people how made more money waiting tables then with their social work or teaching degrees. Its crazy they still work their college job paying off student debt they never needed. These people are not at all incompetent they were just told to follow their dreams when they were 17 18 and choose a degree to cater towards their dream, passion, or what have you.
- ebiester 12y ago
  They don't need their degrees for their current jobs. That doesn't mean they will be waiting tables forever.
  - tsotha 12y ago
    If you don't get a job in you field within the first few years, your odds of ever doing so become much smaller.
    - ebiester 12y ago
      Consider that my sister started out (without a college degree) working basic jobs until she ended up working recruiting. She's done that for years now, but she's reached a ceiling because jobs in HR ask for a degree. Any degree. Communication, Psychology, English, anything. Now, all that it would take for her to break through is to have some experience in general HR. After that, nobody would even look at the degree. However, there's a ceiling there. I look at many of my friends who have humanities and Social Science degrees and their real careers didn't take off until their late 20s or early 30s. Does that mean that my friends with Communications degrees ended up in Radio? No. But they would have never ended up where they are without that "any" degree. IT is a different world entirely.
- opendais 12y ago
  http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_318.20.asp http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_318.20.as... Please find me 60% in a single class of major in that table for me? How about we write off two entire categories. Say Humanities and "Other" degrees! That is only 41% of that 60%. It just doesn't get you there to blame "those people". Sorry. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/05/20/only-27-percent-of-college-grads-have-a-job-related-to-their-major/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/05/20/o... And if you think the 60% number is high, this one pegs it at 73%!
tsotha 12y ago
>60% can't find a job in their field isn't a "motivational problem" or a "I picked the wrong degree problem". It is a general, widespread economic problem. Not necessarily. If there have ever only been 2,000 positions for marine biologists opening up every year and 20,000 graduate, that's not a widespread economic problem so much as a mismatch between what people want to do and the availability of jobs in that field. Part of the problem is too many people are getting advanced degrees. It seems to be dogma these days that society will become wealthier if we graduate more people with specialized skills. But that's putting the cart before the horse - producing a whole bunch of experts in fields with no demand for those experts results in a bunch of people who've wasted a decade of their lives. People need to be realistic about the implications of their field of study.
- opendais 12y ago
  If the majority of intelligent, educated people make the wrong choice and you want to blame those people: A) You believe you are smarter than 60% of people with degrees and are accurately capable of predicting supply/demand. B) You believe an external factor is at fault. Even I, who have met many people I think are idiots with college degrees, would not presume A. From your comment, I think you are really trying to sell A. I'm not buying. Particularly: > People need to be realistic about the implications of their field of study. If I misunderstood, please explain.
  - tsotha 12y ago
    Oh, allow me to explain. > A) You believe you are smarter than 60% of people with degrees and are accurately capable of predicting supply/demand. You don't have to be exactly 3 SD out to be smarter than 60% of a group of people, so I likely am. On top of that, these are people who've never had a real job and are choosing a major at age 18 or so. But that's not the point. The point is many of these people just assumed the job would be there when they graduated without doing any research at all. They didn't even look. There's two really terrible common pieces of advice parents give to their children: 1) "Just be yourself" when dating and 2) "When choosing a major do what you love". > B) You believe an external factor is at fault. Well, yes, an external factor is partially at fault. That external factor is the higher education establishment, which is corrupt as hell. They lobby the government for ever increasing amounts of loans for students and then award themselves $400k salaries. Don't let anyone tell you there's such a thing as a nonprofit institution. The idea that 60% of people couldn't find work in their field of study isn't surprising to me at all.

ChuckMcM 12y ago

I get the 'I can't find a job opening in the area I'm trained/passionate about' but what I would like to understand is whether or not that includes "I can't create a job in the area I am trained/passionate about." I have coached a number of folks who seemed to feel strangely disempowered, which is to say that the world had to change (job opening appears, company moves to their area, etc) in order for them to make progress on their goals. I've had some success at simplifying the question using the common trick of assuming solutions to the presumptive problems. So for example starting with "Ok lets stipulate that there is a million dollars in a bank vault that is paying you $1,200 a month in 'free' money. And you're living in an area where that pays all your food, rent, and gas. Now, what do you want to do with your time?" That gets us past blaming "the economy" and taking ownership of what they want to do. It is a different way of thinking, but it gets out of the rut of 'answer' based thinking. Life is like riding a train that you know is on a track with a bridge out over a 1000' chasm. When the train gets there, it will fall into the chasm, and everyone on board will die. Given that every train you could take from a station has this same "feature" what train do you pick? Who do you pick to ride with you? What places does the train need to go through before it gets to the missing bridge? Sometimes it isn't as complicated as what do you want to do with your life, it is simply what can you do today that is fulfilling to you?

opendais 12y ago
> "I can't create a job in the area I am trained/passionate about." A) Demand B) Access to Capital If you can't find an employer, there is likely insufficient demand. As someone who "created his job" initially, I was badly underpaid for the first 18 months and got sick of dealing with it even once my income grew to a "normal rate". I think you are looking at this from the perspective of someone who is going to be in the top 50% of a large field and be successful, no matter the economic situation. I think most people aren't in that top 50%.
- ChuckMcM 12y ago
  Can you say more about this? "As someone who 'created his job' initially, I was badly underpaid for the first 18 months and got sick of dealing with it even once my income grew to a 'normal rate'." I think it is awesome that you went from 'no job in your area of expertise' to 'normal income' in 18 months. I have a huge amount of respect for that, I am looking for clarity on the 'got sick of dealing with it' part. What were you sick of? I have never commissioned a survey on it but my experience from undergraduate to career was that there was a 100% correlation between passion for something and top 50% of people who do that thing. Every student I met at USC that was passionate about electrical engineering was in the top 50% of their graduating class, every clerk, salesperson, engineer, gardner, taxi driver, artist, and writer I've ever met who was passionate about what they were doing, did it better than most. That observation has been pretty foundational in my thinking about life and happiness. I would be intrigued to find a counter example.
  - opendais 12y ago
    > I think it is awesome that you went from 'no job in your area of expertise' to 'normal income' in 18 months. I'm pretty sure my outcome so far is 50%+ luck and I don't know if I'll be able to sustain it forever. > I am looking for clarity on the 'got sick of dealing with it' part. What were you sick of? Consulting/Contracting work [my only option with $0 in capital] requires soft skills in dealing with people. The majority of my personal failings all relate to soft skills. 1) I've got a tendency to provide too much information rather than too little. 2) I tend to have poor communication with non-technical people [aka clients]. While I could blame it on them, the fact remains it was vital to my income on that course and therefore truly on me. 3) I'm a bit of an odd duck socially, even by programmer standards. 4) I don't have a poker face when annoyed/irritated/etc. I also have poor control over my tone in such situations. Coupled with #1 & #2 this tends to lead to a much higher client turnover than most consultants/contractors experience [I could be wrong, but I don't think so]. 5) I was able to get a "normal job" and I prefer it. However, there is still one older engineer who needles me about #2. ;) > I have never commissioned a survey on it but my experience from undergraduate to career was that there was a 100% correlation between passion for something and top 50% of people who do that thing. Every student I met at USC that was passionate about electrical engineering was in the top 50% of their graduating class, every clerk, salesperson, engineer, gardner, taxi driver, artist, and writer I've ever met who was passionate about what they were doing, did it better than most. That observation has been pretty foundational in my thinking about life and happiness. I would be intrigued to find a counter example. You may be right. I don't think I'm in the top 50% of software developers, I am probably in the top 65%. EDIT: A perfect example of #2: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7921042 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7921042 I wasn't sufficiently clear about what I meant by "market rates" which leads to him launching into an explanation that [I think] he realized was not needed when he basically agreed with another poster about the $ figure quoted in the article. This is due to the fact I didn't explicitly define "market rates" as the amount the person received on offer in the article.

wil421 12y ago

>"I picked the wrong degree problem". I would argue this point. Many people I know or worked at my college jobs just plain chose the wrong path. Creative writing degrees, Drama degrees, or even one poor girl with over 100K in debt from an Opera degree. Working as a waiter I even encountered people how made more money waiting tables then with their social work or teaching degrees. Its crazy they still work their college job paying off student debt they never needed. These people are not at all incompetent they were just told to follow their dreams when they were 17 18 and choose a degree to cater towards their dream, passion, or what have you.

ebiester 12y ago
They don't need their degrees for their current jobs. That doesn't mean they will be waiting tables forever.
- tsotha 12y ago
  If you don't get a job in you field within the first few years, your odds of ever doing so become much smaller.
  - ebiester 12y ago
    Consider that my sister started out (without a college degree) working basic jobs until she ended up working recruiting. She's done that for years now, but she's reached a ceiling because jobs in HR ask for a degree. Any degree. Communication, Psychology, English, anything. Now, all that it would take for her to break through is to have some experience in general HR. After that, nobody would even look at the degree. However, there's a ceiling there. I look at many of my friends who have humanities and Social Science degrees and their real careers didn't take off until their late 20s or early 30s. Does that mean that my friends with Communications degrees ended up in Radio? No. But they would have never ended up where they are without that "any" degree. IT is a different world entirely.
opendais 12y ago
http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_318.20.asp http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_318.20.as... Please find me 60% in a single class of major in that table for me? How about we write off two entire categories. Say Humanities and "Other" degrees! That is only 41% of that 60%. It just doesn't get you there to blame "those people". Sorry. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/05/20/only-27-percent-of-college-grads-have-a-job-related-to-their-major/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/05/20/o... And if you think the 60% number is high, this one pegs it at 73%!

tsotha 12y ago

>60% can't find a job in their field isn't a "motivational problem" or a "I picked the wrong degree problem". It is a general, widespread economic problem. Not necessarily. If there have ever only been 2,000 positions for marine biologists opening up every year and 20,000 graduate, that's not a widespread economic problem so much as a mismatch between what people want to do and the availability of jobs in that field. Part of the problem is too many people are getting advanced degrees. It seems to be dogma these days that society will become wealthier if we graduate more people with specialized skills. But that's putting the cart before the horse - producing a whole bunch of experts in fields with no demand for those experts results in a bunch of people who've wasted a decade of their lives. People need to be realistic about the implications of their field of study.

opendais 12y ago
If the majority of intelligent, educated people make the wrong choice and you want to blame those people: A) You believe you are smarter than 60% of people with degrees and are accurately capable of predicting supply/demand. B) You believe an external factor is at fault. Even I, who have met many people I think are idiots with college degrees, would not presume A. From your comment, I think you are really trying to sell A. I'm not buying. Particularly: > People need to be realistic about the implications of their field of study. If I misunderstood, please explain.
- tsotha 12y ago
  Oh, allow me to explain. > A) You believe you are smarter than 60% of people with degrees and are accurately capable of predicting supply/demand. You don't have to be exactly 3 SD out to be smarter than 60% of a group of people, so I likely am. On top of that, these are people who've never had a real job and are choosing a major at age 18 or so. But that's not the point. The point is many of these people just assumed the job would be there when they graduated without doing any research at all. They didn't even look. There's two really terrible common pieces of advice parents give to their children: 1) "Just be yourself" when dating and 2) "When choosing a major do what you love". > B) You believe an external factor is at fault. Well, yes, an external factor is partially at fault. That external factor is the higher education establishment, which is corrupt as hell. They lobby the government for ever increasing amounts of loans for students and then award themselves $400k salaries. Don't let anyone tell you there's such a thing as a nonprofit institution. The idea that 60% of people couldn't find work in their field of study isn't surprising to me at all.