3 ms·

The company is a family of "brothers", hundreds of friends but only a few "brothers". Consider how that sounds to a woman considering a position there. I'm not

by polemic 12y ago

The company is a family of "brothers", hundreds of friends but only a few "brothers". Consider how that sounds to a woman considering a position there. I'm not saying it's deliberate, but it's sending a message.

npizzolato 12y ago
Sometimes I feel like people are trying to be offended... If you look at the full quote, he wasn't talking about his company. He was talking about his friends in his personal life. "Allow me to draw an example from my personal life. I have hundreds of friends, but I only consider a couple of them close enough to call my brothers. They call me the same. That doesn’t mean we have the same mother and came from the same womb. It’s simply a way to say that my relationship with them is more akin to the one I have with my two actual sisters than it is to most of my friendships. My “brothers” know all about me and I them, just like my real sisters do." Maybe the only close friends he has that are as close as family are male. Are you suggesting he's sexist for that?
- polemic 12y ago
  I'm suggesting that he should be mindful of what he's saying, and how that impacts his staff, and the message that he's projecting to future hires. I really don't mind if people roll their eyes at me :) just that they consider the possibility that it was a poor choice of words.
  - kelnos 12y ago
    I wouldn't agree that it was a poor choice of words. The kind of people who are so sensitive that they get offended by trivial things like that are not the kind of people I'd want working with/for me. And yes, that's a value judgment of mine that it's "trivial". Others are welcome to feel differently, but I'm welcome to (as you put) roll my eyes, and think it's a bit silly.
kelnos 12y ago
It's only sending a message if you're looking for one. Did you consider that it could simply be that he was describing the current state of affairs? He only has male employees, so they're his brothers. If they hire a woman, it'd be "brothers and sisters" or simply "siblings". I agree with the sibling poster that it seems like some people go out of their way to be offended.
- polemic 12y ago
  > It's only sending a message if you're looking for one. Conversely, consider that you don't see the message because it's inclusive (I assume) for you. It's interesting that you also said: > The kind of people who are so sensitive that they get offended by trivial things like that are not the kind of people I'd want working with/for me I mean, sure it's trivial to you. But what if it wasn't. What if your boss used language that excluded you for some reason. Would you still not want to work with me when I went to bat for you? I guess the family/team thing is a good analogy, in the end. In a family you have to put up with your racist/sexist/whatever-ist family and love them regardless. In a team you don't put up with that shit, because you don't have to. I'd rather work with a team.
  - kelnos 12y ago
    I mean, sure it's trivial to you. But what if it wasn't. What if your boss used language that excluded you for some reason. Would you still not want to work with me when I went to bat for you? In that hypothetical situation, I'd of course want to work with you because you were standing up for me, obviously. I wouldn't want to work for the boss because he offended me -- well, I can't say I wouldn't want to work for him; it depends on his reaction to being called out on it. But that's kinda the overall point: some people are offended by some things, and some people aren't. Just because I take offense to something someone says to me, it doesn't mean it's actually offensive (and vice versa). I want to associate with people who aren't offended by things I consider trivial and non-offensive, and I don't want to associate with people who offend me and think it's ok. And that not set in stone: it's certainly happened in my life where I'd say things that I didn't find offensive, but after getting called on it and hearing other perspectives, over time I would change my mind. I just get a bit worried that, considering how much we discuss and consider issues of sex and race here, we tend to take completely innocent statements and blow them out of proportion. Intent does matter, to a certain extent. The line where something where "no offense was intended" goes from "ok, no big deal" to "offensive regardless of intent" is different for everyone. But I feel like that line tends to swing toward the latter much too soon for sex/race issues, to the point where it gets hard to genuinely express yourself without a very high risk of offending someone.

by polemic 12y ago

npizzolato 12y ago

Sometimes I feel like people are trying to be offended... If you look at the full quote, he wasn't talking about his company. He was talking about his friends in his personal life. "Allow me to draw an example from my personal life. I have hundreds of friends, but I only consider a couple of them close enough to call my brothers. They call me the same. That doesn’t mean we have the same mother and came from the same womb. It’s simply a way to say that my relationship with them is more akin to the one I have with my two actual sisters than it is to most of my friendships. My “brothers” know all about me and I them, just like my real sisters do." Maybe the only close friends he has that are as close as family are male. Are you suggesting he's sexist for that?

polemic 12y ago
I'm suggesting that he should be mindful of what he's saying, and how that impacts his staff, and the message that he's projecting to future hires. I really don't mind if people roll their eyes at me :) just that they consider the possibility that it was a poor choice of words.
- kelnos 12y ago
  I wouldn't agree that it was a poor choice of words. The kind of people who are so sensitive that they get offended by trivial things like that are not the kind of people I'd want working with/for me. And yes, that's a value judgment of mine that it's "trivial". Others are welcome to feel differently, but I'm welcome to (as you put) roll my eyes, and think it's a bit silly.

kelnos 12y ago

It's only sending a message if you're looking for one. Did you consider that it could simply be that he was describing the current state of affairs? He only has male employees, so they're his brothers. If they hire a woman, it'd be "brothers and sisters" or simply "siblings". I agree with the sibling poster that it seems like some people go out of their way to be offended.

polemic 12y ago
> It's only sending a message if you're looking for one. Conversely, consider that you don't see the message because it's inclusive (I assume) for you. It's interesting that you also said: > The kind of people who are so sensitive that they get offended by trivial things like that are not the kind of people I'd want working with/for me I mean, sure it's trivial to you. But what if it wasn't. What if your boss used language that excluded you for some reason. Would you still not want to work with me when I went to bat for you? I guess the family/team thing is a good analogy, in the end. In a family you have to put up with your racist/sexist/whatever-ist family and love them regardless. In a team you don't put up with that shit, because you don't have to. I'd rather work with a team.
- kelnos 12y ago
  I mean, sure it's trivial to you. But what if it wasn't. What if your boss used language that excluded you for some reason. Would you still not want to work with me when I went to bat for you? In that hypothetical situation, I'd of course want to work with you because you were standing up for me, obviously. I wouldn't want to work for the boss because he offended me -- well, I can't say I wouldn't want to work for him; it depends on his reaction to being called out on it. But that's kinda the overall point: some people are offended by some things, and some people aren't. Just because I take offense to something someone says to me, it doesn't mean it's actually offensive (and vice versa). I want to associate with people who aren't offended by things I consider trivial and non-offensive, and I don't want to associate with people who offend me and think it's ok. And that not set in stone: it's certainly happened in my life where I'd say things that I didn't find offensive, but after getting called on it and hearing other perspectives, over time I would change my mind. I just get a bit worried that, considering how much we discuss and consider issues of sex and race here, we tend to take completely innocent statements and blow them out of proportion. Intent does matter, to a certain extent. The line where something where "no offense was intended" goes from "ok, no big deal" to "offensive regardless of intent" is different for everyone. But I feel like that line tends to swing toward the latter much too soon for sex/race issues, to the point where it gets hard to genuinely express yourself without a very high risk of offending someone.