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> Unless you are talking about recreational use which is a different topic. No, it's still the same plant. Criminalizing its consumption is just flat out wrong

by pstuart 12y ago

> Unless you are talking about recreational use which is a different topic. No, it's still the same plant. Criminalizing its consumption is just flat out wrong. Where's the FDA on regulating Traditional Chinese Medicine? You know, herbs and stuff? What test are you going to force me to take to consume those herbs? Why do you have any say over what I can consume?

ars 12y ago
So your point is that because it's a plant, it's not a drug and not under the purvey of the FDA? If that's the case then it's still a federal matter and not a local one. > What test are you going to force me to take to consume those herbs? A test of knowledge of what they do, and in what situations they can harm. Not a morality test since I think that's what you are scared of, but a test to make sure you know what you are doing. > Why do you have any say over what I can consume? Because most people are idiots and will take anything without thinking if it's a good idea or not. I don't want to tell people what to do, but at least demonstrate that you are doing it with knowledge and not with randomness.
- pstuart 12y ago
  > I don't want to tell people what to do <snip> Bullshit. That's exactly what you want.
  - ars 12y ago
    And with this the discussion is over. I was expecting better, although I guess I shouldn't have been since you almost never responded to any of my points except to attack. It's an effective tactic I guess - the NRA does it to, they attack any law about guns no matter how reasonable - and it works! I guess that's how politics works these days, so, keep it up??? PS. If you could humor me, just one question: From all I wrote, am I for or against legalization?
    - pstuart 12y ago
      You appear to be for legalization as long as the participants pass your test for "valid consumption". I could also argue with a "new earther" or holocaust denier and try to give them a chance to make the nuances of their argument be known. But I choose not to because I know that they're wrong. As with you. You have no grasp of the damage that has been done to society by the illegality of cannabis or the reasons that it's been done. Hint: it was never about the safety of those consuming it.
shin_lao 12y ago
>What test are you going to force me to take to consume those herbs? Why do you have any say over what I can consume? Before you say "I can do anything I want/it's my problem/ freedom comes first", please consider the following: - There is an asymmetric relationship between a customer and a manufacturer with incredible marketing power. - You live in a society which invested in you, and although you might not value your life, it actually has value for said society. - You are not alone, the problem isn't the loner consuming <whatever> but the accumulated effect on society when the behavior is widespread. - When I'm ill I expect the drugs/treatments I take to either replace my symptoms will less unpleasant symptoms or cure me altogether. The purpose of testing and regulations are for people like me. You can call me a square if you want, but I think my expectations are actually widespread. - "But we know the effect of <whatever>, I use it all the time, and no problem". Allergic reactions, interactions with other drugs, long term effects, interactions with diseases... So many possibilities...
- staunch 12y ago
  Do you know how many FDA approved drugs kill people every year due to adverse reactions? How times drug companies have been caught selling FDA approved drugs that they knew to be deadly? How do you justify alcohol and tobacco being legal? Both directly kill millions. How do you answer the actual question. On what moral principle can one human seek to imprison another human for growing or possessing a simple flower? Why not outlaw fatty foods like burgers and fries? That's the only thing that directly kills even more people than alcohol and tobacco. Why not arrest people for eating illegally fatty foods? Arrest illicit burger dealers? If you had grown up in a world where fatty foods were illegal you would tell us all how our desire to eat fatty food is bad for society. You would be right. It is. It's also my right as a human.
  - shin_lao 12y ago
    Do you know how many FDA approved drugs kill people every year due to adverse reactions? [...] I don't understand your point. You realize that mistakes or corruption happen, whatever system you have in place, it doesn't mean the system is wrong. On what moral principle can one human seek to imprison another human for growing or possessing a simple flower? With that kind of argument you could say such things as "On what moral principle can one human seek to imprison another human because it possesses a piece of metal?" (weapon possession). The problem is the balance between public interest and individual freedom. My point isn't that outlawing <whatever substance> is the way to go, my point is that you have to put everything in perspective and avoid overly simplistic principles such as "what matters is my individual freedom". You have to appreciate that your freedom stops where the freedom of others start and that your actions have an impact on society as a whole. It's not just a childish "I'm free to do whatever you want". You are. If you live alone in the forest.

by pstuart 12y ago

ars 12y ago

So your point is that because it's a plant, it's not a drug and not under the purvey of the FDA? If that's the case then it's still a federal matter and not a local one. > What test are you going to force me to take to consume those herbs? A test of knowledge of what they do, and in what situations they can harm. Not a morality test since I think that's what you are scared of, but a test to make sure you know what you are doing. > Why do you have any say over what I can consume? Because most people are idiots and will take anything without thinking if it's a good idea or not. I don't want to tell people what to do, but at least demonstrate that you are doing it with knowledge and not with randomness.

pstuart 12y ago
> I don't want to tell people what to do <snip> Bullshit. That's exactly what you want.
- ars 12y ago
  And with this the discussion is over. I was expecting better, although I guess I shouldn't have been since you almost never responded to any of my points except to attack. It's an effective tactic I guess - the NRA does it to, they attack any law about guns no matter how reasonable - and it works! I guess that's how politics works these days, so, keep it up??? PS. If you could humor me, just one question: From all I wrote, am I for or against legalization?
  - pstuart 12y ago
    You appear to be for legalization as long as the participants pass your test for "valid consumption". I could also argue with a "new earther" or holocaust denier and try to give them a chance to make the nuances of their argument be known. But I choose not to because I know that they're wrong. As with you. You have no grasp of the damage that has been done to society by the illegality of cannabis or the reasons that it's been done. Hint: it was never about the safety of those consuming it.

shin_lao 12y ago

>What test are you going to force me to take to consume those herbs? Why do you have any say over what I can consume? Before you say "I can do anything I want/it's my problem/ freedom comes first", please consider the following: - There is an asymmetric relationship between a customer and a manufacturer with incredible marketing power. - You live in a society which invested in you, and although you might not value your life, it actually has value for said society. - You are not alone, the problem isn't the loner consuming <whatever> but the accumulated effect on society when the behavior is widespread. - When I'm ill I expect the drugs/treatments I take to either replace my symptoms will less unpleasant symptoms or cure me altogether. The purpose of testing and regulations are for people like me. You can call me a square if you want, but I think my expectations are actually widespread. - "But we know the effect of <whatever>, I use it all the time, and no problem". Allergic reactions, interactions with other drugs, long term effects, interactions with diseases... So many possibilities...

staunch 12y ago
Do you know how many FDA approved drugs kill people every year due to adverse reactions? How times drug companies have been caught selling FDA approved drugs that they knew to be deadly? How do you justify alcohol and tobacco being legal? Both directly kill millions. How do you answer the actual question. On what moral principle can one human seek to imprison another human for growing or possessing a simple flower? Why not outlaw fatty foods like burgers and fries? That's the only thing that directly kills even more people than alcohol and tobacco. Why not arrest people for eating illegally fatty foods? Arrest illicit burger dealers? If you had grown up in a world where fatty foods were illegal you would tell us all how our desire to eat fatty food is bad for society. You would be right. It is. It's also my right as a human.
- shin_lao 12y ago
  Do you know how many FDA approved drugs kill people every year due to adverse reactions? [...] I don't understand your point. You realize that mistakes or corruption happen, whatever system you have in place, it doesn't mean the system is wrong. On what moral principle can one human seek to imprison another human for growing or possessing a simple flower? With that kind of argument you could say such things as "On what moral principle can one human seek to imprison another human because it possesses a piece of metal?" (weapon possession). The problem is the balance between public interest and individual freedom. My point isn't that outlawing <whatever substance> is the way to go, my point is that you have to put everything in perspective and avoid overly simplistic principles such as "what matters is my individual freedom". You have to appreciate that your freedom stops where the freedom of others start and that your actions have an impact on society as a whole. It's not just a childish "I'm free to do whatever you want". You are. If you live alone in the forest.