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People need to to re-evaluate their personal security and convenience protocols. I consciously consider whether to use a credit card in some venues, because I'

People need to to re-evaluate their personal security and convenience protocols. I consciously consider whether to use a credit card in some venues, because I'm aware that many businesses have significant security lapses and often simply no understanding of the problems, much less motivation to tackle them. In most situations, you can still pay in cash. As a side-benefit, with cash you aren't directly giving the "vampire squid" of Big Finance its 3 or 5 or whatever percent... "tithe", I guess I would call it, these days. (And as for debit cards... unless you are forced to use one, as an end-user why would you forgo the additional protections a credit card offers and take on the risk of a direct route to your personal assets?) I suggest keeping a few $20's in your wallet and paying for things such as Chang's in cash. I'd rather lose $100 in cash, than deal with a breach of my account security. I recognize that my thinking at this point doesn't encompass what happens to risk if and when we all start carrying more cash around, again, and become as a group sweeter targets for random robbery. I also don't haul out an obviously loaded wallet or money clip, when paying. No point in "waving" that cash about and thus standing out of the crowd.

Domenic_S 12y ago
You say to use a credit card over a debit card for the added security, but then advocate paying cash instead of relying on that security. Why? I've had my Amex number stolen once or twice and it was fantastically easy to straighten out. Amex noticed it and called me. They next-day'd a new card, and provided me with a list of places I autopay so I could change my CC#. The whole ordeal cost me maybe 20 minutes of my time -- well worth the benefit of not fretting over account security.
- pasbesoin 12y ago
  The list of places one "autopays" (recurring payments) is a new one, to me. Although not all of my payments are monthly or on a regular schedule. I had to replace a card (at my initiation) a few years ago. The card was overnighted, but I still had to change a number of registrations using it. For $5 or $10 somewhere, I sometimes decide the risk of such a hassle isn't worth it. As various vendors have had demonstrated what I always, based upon personal experience, wondered about: Poor security. As that has grown in reporting in the last couple of years, I've continued to tighten up on where I'll use a card. Some further years back, there was a burgeoning problem with "carbons" in the old mechanical swipe mechanisms. Many places didn't dispose of them properly, leading to dumpster diving -- or their setting aside by a malicious employee. If you thought the place felt "dodgey", you paid in cash. Plus ca change... And as I also mentioned, I feel not just a lack of desire to hand that percentage over to some big issuer / payment processor combine, but an outright obligation not to. "Big finance" is already "out of control", and I think we have an obligation not to feed it and so empower it further. Not the entrenched players who have so recently and persistently demonstrated their own corrupt and malicious nature. P.S. While I'm at it, I'll also mention that I don't want to participate further in data mining that I find is increasingly antagonistic to the card holder's best interests. Buy the wrong stuff, go to the wrong places, etc., and the next thing you know, e.g. your insurance rates may increase. You might even have employment problems. Who knows? Data mining is still in its "Wild West" phase. So far -- so far as I know -- serial numbers on $5's and $10's are not being tracked. (I'm unsure about $20's. $50's and $100's, probably soon if not already.)
Alupis 12y ago
Reminds me of the people who get $100 bills from the bank, and like to whip them out like it's a lot of money. As soon as they spend it... it's now in $20's and $10's... seems pointless. I do like the idea of carrying some cash around -- far too often I've been at a bar with friends and the venue refuses to split the tab, and somehow I always get stuck fronting for everyone. But... as with most things... it's not convenient to get cash from an ATM all the time, and I always end up not having cash on me when I need it most.
synapticfire 12y ago
Rarely are the prices different if paying in cash vs credit (due to agreements I believe) which means you still pay the extra 3 to 5 percent, but receive no reward points, cash back, or anything extra. So in affect, by paying cash, you are receiving less for your money.
- oasisbob 12y ago
  Perhaps. After working for a few years in the financial industry, I believe that interchange fees are fundamentally immoral. The US interchange market is fundamentally broken, and they act as a perverse incentive. I make it a point to use cash when I can, especially with smaller businesses. I feel like I'm getting my money's worth.
- pasbesoin 12y ago
  I'm opposed to participating in making financial institutions that are already "too big to fail" yet bigger. I'd rather the merchant get the percentage. Particularly with smaller merchants who are forced to pay larger percentages on charges. I also don't like all the games that card issuers make us play. "Rewards" -- with qualifications. "Cash back" -- with qualifications. "Miles" -- don't even get me started. For my part, I no longer wish to participate -- any more than I find absolutely necessary -- in furthering this system and its entrenched leaders. So, putting my money where my mouth is...
mindslight 12y ago
I agree, but don't understand why one would consider credit cards risky. I'd be willing to paint my credit card number on the side of a building for $2000 (and I'm overestimating here, since who knows what chaotic billionaire will read this). There's simply nothing secret about them - they are mere identifiers not authenticators. Public key crypto has been around for nearly 40 years and ubiquitous online transactions for nearly 20 - Visa and Mastercard simply don't care to change as they just push the costs onto merchants, and the costs are still low enough that merchants don't push back. Paying cash in general is a good idea for privacy's sake (do you really want your auto insurance company becoming aware of how much alcohol you purchase?), and avoiding the 4% tithe is nice. But more importantly, paying tips with cash helps waiters avoid the much more burdensome and directly destructive >30% tithe.
- ceejayoz 12y ago
  > But more importantly, paying tips with cash helps waiters avoid the much more burdensome and directly destructive >30% tithe. Oh, honestly. Marginal tax rate of your average full-time waiter is going to be at best in the 25% bracket, and much of their wages will be in the 10% and 15% brackets. Functionally it'll be even lower, given deductions and credits.
  - mindslight 12y ago
    It's taken directly off the top, so it will be from their highest bracket. And that money is used to directly work against the interests of said waiter, funding NSA datamining, drug persecution, worldwide war and mayhem, etc. So in a sense, it should be counted twice.
    - ceejayoz 12y ago
      You're sounding almost like you've never gotten a paycheck. No, it won't be from the highest bracket. Waiters aren't in some bizarre class of people that don't get marginal tax rates. Any competent payroll company will estimate the final tax rate, and the number of deductions can be adjusted to fix it if your return is overly high each year. That money is also used to educate their children, build the roads and bridges they drive on, and in the case of generally lower-income waiters, might well help with food and medical care. I don't like the things you highlight, but pretending taxation offers zero benefits to anyone is silly.

Domenic_S 12y ago

You say to use a credit card over a debit card for the added security, but then advocate paying cash instead of relying on that security. Why? I've had my Amex number stolen once or twice and it was fantastically easy to straighten out. Amex noticed it and called me. They next-day'd a new card, and provided me with a list of places I autopay so I could change my CC#. The whole ordeal cost me maybe 20 minutes of my time -- well worth the benefit of not fretting over account security.

pasbesoin 12y ago
The list of places one "autopays" (recurring payments) is a new one, to me. Although not all of my payments are monthly or on a regular schedule. I had to replace a card (at my initiation) a few years ago. The card was overnighted, but I still had to change a number of registrations using it. For $5 or $10 somewhere, I sometimes decide the risk of such a hassle isn't worth it. As various vendors have had demonstrated what I always, based upon personal experience, wondered about: Poor security. As that has grown in reporting in the last couple of years, I've continued to tighten up on where I'll use a card. Some further years back, there was a burgeoning problem with "carbons" in the old mechanical swipe mechanisms. Many places didn't dispose of them properly, leading to dumpster diving -- or their setting aside by a malicious employee. If you thought the place felt "dodgey", you paid in cash. Plus ca change... And as I also mentioned, I feel not just a lack of desire to hand that percentage over to some big issuer / payment processor combine, but an outright obligation not to. "Big finance" is already "out of control", and I think we have an obligation not to feed it and so empower it further. Not the entrenched players who have so recently and persistently demonstrated their own corrupt and malicious nature. P.S. While I'm at it, I'll also mention that I don't want to participate further in data mining that I find is increasingly antagonistic to the card holder's best interests. Buy the wrong stuff, go to the wrong places, etc., and the next thing you know, e.g. your insurance rates may increase. You might even have employment problems. Who knows? Data mining is still in its "Wild West" phase. So far -- so far as I know -- serial numbers on $5's and $10's are not being tracked. (I'm unsure about $20's. $50's and $100's, probably soon if not already.)

Alupis 12y ago

Reminds me of the people who get $100 bills from the bank, and like to whip them out like it's a lot of money. As soon as they spend it... it's now in $20's and $10's... seems pointless. I do like the idea of carrying some cash around -- far too often I've been at a bar with friends and the venue refuses to split the tab, and somehow I always get stuck fronting for everyone. But... as with most things... it's not convenient to get cash from an ATM all the time, and I always end up not having cash on me when I need it most.

synapticfire 12y ago

Rarely are the prices different if paying in cash vs credit (due to agreements I believe) which means you still pay the extra 3 to 5 percent, but receive no reward points, cash back, or anything extra. So in affect, by paying cash, you are receiving less for your money.

oasisbob 12y ago
Perhaps. After working for a few years in the financial industry, I believe that interchange fees are fundamentally immoral. The US interchange market is fundamentally broken, and they act as a perverse incentive. I make it a point to use cash when I can, especially with smaller businesses. I feel like I'm getting my money's worth.
pasbesoin 12y ago
I'm opposed to participating in making financial institutions that are already "too big to fail" yet bigger. I'd rather the merchant get the percentage. Particularly with smaller merchants who are forced to pay larger percentages on charges. I also don't like all the games that card issuers make us play. "Rewards" -- with qualifications. "Cash back" -- with qualifications. "Miles" -- don't even get me started. For my part, I no longer wish to participate -- any more than I find absolutely necessary -- in furthering this system and its entrenched leaders. So, putting my money where my mouth is...

mindslight 12y ago

I agree, but don't understand why one would consider credit cards risky. I'd be willing to paint my credit card number on the side of a building for $2000 (and I'm overestimating here, since who knows what chaotic billionaire will read this). There's simply nothing secret about them - they are mere identifiers not authenticators. Public key crypto has been around for nearly 40 years and ubiquitous online transactions for nearly 20 - Visa and Mastercard simply don't care to change as they just push the costs onto merchants, and the costs are still low enough that merchants don't push back. Paying cash in general is a good idea for privacy's sake (do you really want your auto insurance company becoming aware of how much alcohol you purchase?), and avoiding the 4% tithe is nice. But more importantly, paying tips with cash helps waiters avoid the much more burdensome and directly destructive >30% tithe.

ceejayoz 12y ago
> But more importantly, paying tips with cash helps waiters avoid the much more burdensome and directly destructive >30% tithe. Oh, honestly. Marginal tax rate of your average full-time waiter is going to be at best in the 25% bracket, and much of their wages will be in the 10% and 15% brackets. Functionally it'll be even lower, given deductions and credits.
- mindslight 12y ago
  It's taken directly off the top, so it will be from their highest bracket. And that money is used to directly work against the interests of said waiter, funding NSA datamining, drug persecution, worldwide war and mayhem, etc. So in a sense, it should be counted twice.
  - ceejayoz 12y ago
    You're sounding almost like you've never gotten a paycheck. No, it won't be from the highest bracket. Waiters aren't in some bizarre class of people that don't get marginal tax rates. Any competent payroll company will estimate the final tax rate, and the number of deductions can be adjusted to fix it if your return is overly high each year. That money is also used to educate their children, build the roads and bridges they drive on, and in the case of generally lower-income waiters, might well help with food and medical care. I don't like the things you highlight, but pretending taxation offers zero benefits to anyone is silly.