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You seem to forget that we, as a species, are wired for religion. Remove it and it will leave a void, a god-shaped hole, that is going to be filled with somethi

You seem to forget that we, as a species, are wired for religion. Remove it and it will leave a void, a god-shaped hole, that is going to be filled with something, no matter what. You can't just leave it empty in the general case, you need to replace it with a powerful heavy NOP, like an Indiana Jones switch. Otherwise you're just going to have a really bad time. Sure there's people that can be secular on their own selves, without too much conflict about it. But I believe most of them have put something to fill that behavioural slot. And even if they didn't, you have to see that the majority of people are never going to bear that vacuum and be taken advantage, of the moment their belief-system is vacant.

loup-vaillant 12y ago
Living in a country where religiosity is low (France), I can attest I don't feel any void. What I often see however is other people pretending I have a void. Some even say I don't believe in anything. Well, I believe in the potential of Science, I believe in a small hope of actual immortality (if not for me, maybe for later generations), I believe in love, and lots of other fine things in life. But if I were to out as an atheist in a deep corner of Religious America… I guess the resulting ostracism would leave a void. As for being wired for religion, I don't believe it. Granted, we have some biases, like our tendency to see sentient agents everywhere, that tend to favour religious interpretations of our observations. To suggest however that more accurate interpretations leave a void is a stretch. If I have a God shaped hole, it is mostly filled with physics. Any remaining void just fuels my curiosity.
scotty79 12y ago
We are also wired for racism and magical thinking but we tend to just avoid it with the use of education, not debating how we are left with racistm-shaped hole.
- javajosh 12y ago
  Good point. I'm not an expert on racism, but it would seem that racism does have positive attributes, especially for the "in" group - social cohesion first among them. I'd argue that the racist hole left in Americans, anyway, was filled with it's opposite: tolerance. The only thing we don't tolerate anymore is intolerance (which, BTW, is a very good change). The "shape" of the hole left by religion is more complex. I suppose the best way to describe it would be to compare all extant religions and see what they have in common. My lay-opinion is that they almost all give the adherent two things: a) an almost Newtonian, absolutist world-view, in which b) some sort of father or mother figure that will make everything all right (in the long run). So, it's a kind of certainty about one's own personal insignificance. It's an excuse to "let go". From this perspective, ignoring differences in specific dogma, religion is actually far more realistic than humanism, which usually tends to stress individual importance. But most people (and I include myself in this) are not important. Heck, think of any of the most important people in history - will they be remembered in 1000 years? 10,000? On an even somewhat long (human) time scale, almost none of us matter.
  - scotty79 12y ago
    It's hard for me to see how a belief that you can have a personal relationship with creator of the universe can make you more aware of your insignificance. Scientific view that places you on speck of dust for barely a moment in universes time, until you dissolve into nothing leaving at best some memories in your culture is much more humbling. People use religion mostly to keep disbelieving in injustice of physical world and to combat loneliness and meaninglessness. You are spot on that in USA intolerance towards intolerant replaced racism. Nowadays people get fired over careless comments that can be percieved as racially loaded. It's almost funny when observed from a country that has 99.9% of population of one skin color and nationality and where racism by pople who hate it is perceived more of a sheer stupidity than capital offence.

loup-vaillant 12y ago

Living in a country where religiosity is low (France), I can attest I don't feel any void. What I often see however is other people pretending I have a void. Some even say I don't believe in anything. Well, I believe in the potential of Science, I believe in a small hope of actual immortality (if not for me, maybe for later generations), I believe in love, and lots of other fine things in life. But if I were to out as an atheist in a deep corner of Religious America… I guess the resulting ostracism would leave a void. As for being wired for religion, I don't believe it. Granted, we have some biases, like our tendency to see sentient agents everywhere, that tend to favour religious interpretations of our observations. To suggest however that more accurate interpretations leave a void is a stretch. If I have a God shaped hole, it is mostly filled with physics. Any remaining void just fuels my curiosity.

scotty79 12y ago

We are also wired for racism and magical thinking but we tend to just avoid it with the use of education, not debating how we are left with racistm-shaped hole.

javajosh 12y ago
Good point. I'm not an expert on racism, but it would seem that racism does have positive attributes, especially for the "in" group - social cohesion first among them. I'd argue that the racist hole left in Americans, anyway, was filled with it's opposite: tolerance. The only thing we don't tolerate anymore is intolerance (which, BTW, is a very good change). The "shape" of the hole left by religion is more complex. I suppose the best way to describe it would be to compare all extant religions and see what they have in common. My lay-opinion is that they almost all give the adherent two things: a) an almost Newtonian, absolutist world-view, in which b) some sort of father or mother figure that will make everything all right (in the long run). So, it's a kind of certainty about one's own personal insignificance. It's an excuse to "let go". From this perspective, ignoring differences in specific dogma, religion is actually far more realistic than humanism, which usually tends to stress individual importance. But most people (and I include myself in this) are not important. Heck, think of any of the most important people in history - will they be remembered in 1000 years? 10,000? On an even somewhat long (human) time scale, almost none of us matter.
- scotty79 12y ago
  It's hard for me to see how a belief that you can have a personal relationship with creator of the universe can make you more aware of your insignificance. Scientific view that places you on speck of dust for barely a moment in universes time, until you dissolve into nothing leaving at best some memories in your culture is much more humbling. People use religion mostly to keep disbelieving in injustice of physical world and to combat loneliness and meaninglessness. You are spot on that in USA intolerance towards intolerant replaced racism. Nowadays people get fired over careless comments that can be percieved as racially loaded. It's almost funny when observed from a country that has 99.9% of population of one skin color and nationality and where racism by pople who hate it is perceived more of a sheer stupidity than capital offence.