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Report: Chinese phone comes preloaded with spyware

67 points by chip 12y ago

airencracken 12y ago
To the surprise of no one.
CountSessine 12y ago
I wouldn't try to minimize this issue - it's terrible that the Chinese are trying to fit spyware into unbranded phones like this. Perhaps the bright side here is that when the Chinese do try to commit electronic espionage, they're pretty clumsy about it. BUT... Given the way smartphones everywhere are made - China and elsewhere - it's impossible for even technical users to know that their phones aren't spying on them. While most of the software running on your smartphone's application processor is now open-source (if you're in the Android majority), the software running on the baseband processor is 100% closed source and secret. We don't know anything about the horrible agreements that have been made between shady government agencies and the baseband manufacturers like Qualcom.
- gress 12y ago
  False. The software running on your Android phone's application processor is not open source. A significant fraction of it is based on a closed source fork of AOSP. The rest (both the Google Mobile Services layer, and the manufacturers customizations) are all closed source and have never been open.
  - pwnna 12y ago
    On top of that, there are baseband firmware which runs a realtime OS, which is completely closed source.
  - CountSessine 12y ago
    Oh heavens. I did say 'most', didn't I?
    - gress 12y ago
      Almost none of it is open source.
  - fpgeek 12y ago
    > False. The software running on your Android phone's application processor is not open source. You're skipping over an important practical distinction: The precise software running on the application processor may not be open source, but it is closely related to usable software that is. Given that, it's possible to learn quite a bit by comparing the behavior of the closed-source fork and the open-source base. Is that as good as "open source all the way down"? Of course not. But it is a hell of a lot better than the "opaque binary blobs all the way down" offered by most of the alternatives.
    - coldtea 12y ago
      >Is that as good as "open source all the way down"? Of course not. But it is a hell of a lot better than the "opaque binary blobs all the way down" offered by most of the alternatives. I fail to see how. It's not like a partial binary blob is better than a full on binary blob. The opaque part might do anything too...
      - fpgeek 12y ago
        Well, consider the example of Carrier IQ. The Carrier IQ software was installed on some Android phones, some iPhones and some Blackberry devices: http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/print/9222319/AT_T_Sprint_confirm_use_of_Carrier_IQ_software_on_handsets http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/print/9222319/AT_T_Sp... Where was Carrier IQ found first? Why?
        coldtea 12y ago
        >Where was Carrier IQ found first? Why? The link doesn't say. And if anything it was not because there was an open-source part of the phone OS. For one, on active, sold, phones, the device code is compiled anyway.
    - gress 12y ago
      I'm not skipping anything, and at least you are agreeing that shipping Android phones are not using open source software. I do not dispute that having a related system that is open-source can aid in reverse engineering. However the source of commercial Android phones is not open source, and does not have the benefits that open source would imply.
- userbinator 12y ago
  Qualcomm is American, but on the other hand, Chinese/Taiwanese companies like Spreadtrum and Mediatek which make the bulk of the processors in these unbranded phones have no incentive to cooperate with the US government (including the NSA).
Holbein 12y ago
Of course, if you buy an iPhone in Europe, and you want to use it any significant manner, you're getting spied on by US agencies as well: - GPS: the wifi and celltower db queries that optimize the service are transferred into a foreign country. - use Siri: uploads your whole address book to US servers before use - use iCloud tabs: every URL you visit it uploaded to Apple's US servers - turn on the only cloud backup solution available on the device, and all your data, including every SMS, every call and all your most private notes and photos are also transferred into the foreign country of the US, with a chance of it being analyzed by certain agencies. In other words, this might qualify as getting spied on as well.
- coldtea 12y ago
  Why single out iPhone? How's that different from using an Android phone? Or for that matter any brand of phone + the prevalent mobile surveillance of messages, locations, etc?
  - fpgeek 12y ago
    The article already singled out Android. So far as I can tell, "Generic Star N9500" phone in question is an Android phone: http://www.amazon.com/Generic-Star-N9500-Android-MTK6589/dp/B00C3UYRYA http://www.amazon.com/Generic-Star-N9500-Android-MTK6589/dp/...
- gress 12y ago
  This is just speculation, although possible. Whereas if you buy an Android phone in Europe, you know for certain that your data and behavior are being examined by Google, and are available to US agencies.
  - Holbein 12y ago
    What is speculation about this? - wifi and celltower db query servers are indeed hosted outside EU - Siri indeed uploads your whole address book - it even tells you about that beforehand! - iCloud tabs must upload every URL to a central server, it would not work otherwise - the mud puddle test* proves that iCloud backup is extractable from Apple servers by third parties. *http://www.magnir.com/2012/08/how-secure-is-your-cloud-take-the-mud-puddle-test/ http://www.magnir.com/2012/08/how-secure-is-your-cloud-take-...
bsder 12y ago
Um, why is there a running assumption that this is the Chinese government? A Chinese manufacturer has even more incentive to steal information and sell it given the razor thin margins on making these phones.
mrbill 12y ago
There's a ton of these generic MTK-processor-based phones available online; I bought and played with a few a year or two ago. They range from "really crappy" to "pretty nice", but in most all cases you're stuck with the version of Android that they ship with, as there's no ongoing support, no upgrades from the vendor, etc.
vampirechicken 12y ago
The entire american telecom infrastructure is rife with spyware. Why should chinese telecom be any different?
lyinawake 12y ago
Read this as "Chinese people come preloaded with spyware". Was disappointed when my brain debugged it's sensory input.
etiam 12y ago
How are we doing for FOSS cell phones again?
- nnnnni 12y ago
  I think that there may be ONE option. RMS probably has it...
  - slashdotaccount 12y ago
    It really depends on how FLOSS you want to go? On the software side of things the closest you can get is a phone running OsmocomBB. That only runs on some dumphones and is not useful from a user perspective, it is only for research. For smartphone software, the closest you can get is a phone running Replicant. That still has all the embedded proprietary software; baseband OS, bootloader, wifi/bluetooth/camera firmware etc. On the hardware side of things, we have no ASICs with libre designs. I think there have been some cases with libre designs but none manufactured in large quantities. There are myriad patents covering various hardware processes, instruction sets, CPU stuff etc. See bunnie's talk about layers of openness and the Novena laptop for more on this. RMS uses other people's phones, he doesn't have one himself, mainly due to the network side of things though.
    - nnnnni 12y ago
      Wow, I guess that there aren't really any "fully open" phones in that case. For the truly paranoid (with or without reason), I guess that they would have to go the RMS route -- or find a payphone that isn't within sight of a security camera.
eevilspock 12y ago
The NSA deliberately weakened crypto keys/code. How is that any different?
- briandh 12y ago
  Even if it were the same, it would still be news.
  - eevilspock 12y ago
    Agreed. But my question is still valid (and not deserving of the down votes) given that so many Americans do not react to their government's privacy and anti-democratic intrusions with the same disdain they have toward China's.
varkson 12y ago
I'm currently using an offbrand Chinese Android phone, so this news has made me very very nervous.
- hucxsz 12y ago
  Why you think this is true?
  - varkson 12y ago
    Well, I just don't know. I don't have the same phone this but it's made me wonder.
gbin 12y ago
Am I the only one to find this article really thin ? Where is the disassembled code ? To whom the public key that signed the software belongs too ? Which server it sends the info to exactly ? If you start to get as paranoid as the entire forum is at the moment accusing blindly Apple, Google, Qualcomm etc. Why nobody asks for a simple piece of evidence for anything ? This could really be a cheap manipulation ... Edit: grammar
userbinator 12y ago
More info here, this has been known for some time already: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=53391745 http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=53391745 http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2395007 http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2395007 Fortunately the solution is pretty simple, as these generic MTK devices are all easy to root and reflash with new firmware.

67 points by chip 12y ago

To the surprise of no one.

I wouldn't try to minimize this issue - it's terrible that the Chinese are trying to fit spyware into unbranded phones like this. Perhaps the bright side here is that when the Chinese do try to commit electronic espionage, they're pretty clumsy about it. BUT... Given the way smartphones everywhere are made - China and elsewhere - it's impossible for even technical users to know that their phones aren't spying on them. While most of the software running on your smartphone's application processor is now open-source (if you're in the Android majority), the software running on the baseband processor is 100% closed source and secret. We don't know anything about the horrible agreements that have been made between shady government agencies and the baseband manufacturers like Qualcom.

gress 12y ago
False. The software running on your Android phone's application processor is not open source. A significant fraction of it is based on a closed source fork of AOSP. The rest (both the Google Mobile Services layer, and the manufacturers customizations) are all closed source and have never been open.
- pwnna 12y ago
  On top of that, there are baseband firmware which runs a realtime OS, which is completely closed source.
- CountSessine 12y ago
  Oh heavens. I did say 'most', didn't I?
  - gress 12y ago
    Almost none of it is open source.
- fpgeek 12y ago
  > False. The software running on your Android phone's application processor is not open source. You're skipping over an important practical distinction: The precise software running on the application processor may not be open source, but it is closely related to usable software that is. Given that, it's possible to learn quite a bit by comparing the behavior of the closed-source fork and the open-source base. Is that as good as "open source all the way down"? Of course not. But it is a hell of a lot better than the "opaque binary blobs all the way down" offered by most of the alternatives.
  - coldtea 12y ago
    >Is that as good as "open source all the way down"? Of course not. But it is a hell of a lot better than the "opaque binary blobs all the way down" offered by most of the alternatives. I fail to see how. It's not like a partial binary blob is better than a full on binary blob. The opaque part might do anything too...
    - fpgeek 12y ago
      Well, consider the example of Carrier IQ. The Carrier IQ software was installed on some Android phones, some iPhones and some Blackberry devices: http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/print/9222319/AT_T_Sprint_confirm_use_of_Carrier_IQ_software_on_handsets http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/print/9222319/AT_T_Sp... Where was Carrier IQ found first? Why?
      - coldtea 12y ago
        >Where was Carrier IQ found first? Why? The link doesn't say. And if anything it was not because there was an open-source part of the phone OS. For one, on active, sold, phones, the device code is compiled anyway.
  - gress 12y ago
    I'm not skipping anything, and at least you are agreeing that shipping Android phones are not using open source software. I do not dispute that having a related system that is open-source can aid in reverse engineering. However the source of commercial Android phones is not open source, and does not have the benefits that open source would imply.
userbinator 12y ago
Qualcomm is American, but on the other hand, Chinese/Taiwanese companies like Spreadtrum and Mediatek which make the bulk of the processors in these unbranded phones have no incentive to cooperate with the US government (including the NSA).

Holbein 12y ago

Of course, if you buy an iPhone in Europe, and you want to use it any significant manner, you're getting spied on by US agencies as well: - GPS: the wifi and celltower db queries that optimize the service are transferred into a foreign country. - use Siri: uploads your whole address book to US servers before use - use iCloud tabs: every URL you visit it uploaded to Apple's US servers - turn on the only cloud backup solution available on the device, and all your data, including every SMS, every call and all your most private notes and photos are also transferred into the foreign country of the US, with a chance of it being analyzed by certain agencies. In other words, this might qualify as getting spied on as well.

coldtea 12y ago
Why single out iPhone? How's that different from using an Android phone? Or for that matter any brand of phone + the prevalent mobile surveillance of messages, locations, etc?
- fpgeek 12y ago
  The article already singled out Android. So far as I can tell, "Generic Star N9500" phone in question is an Android phone: http://www.amazon.com/Generic-Star-N9500-Android-MTK6589/dp/B00C3UYRYA http://www.amazon.com/Generic-Star-N9500-Android-MTK6589/dp/...
gress 12y ago
This is just speculation, although possible. Whereas if you buy an Android phone in Europe, you know for certain that your data and behavior are being examined by Google, and are available to US agencies.
- Holbein 12y ago
  What is speculation about this? - wifi and celltower db query servers are indeed hosted outside EU - Siri indeed uploads your whole address book - it even tells you about that beforehand! - iCloud tabs must upload every URL to a central server, it would not work otherwise - the mud puddle test* proves that iCloud backup is extractable from Apple servers by third parties. *http://www.magnir.com/2012/08/how-secure-is-your-cloud-take-the-mud-puddle-test/ http://www.magnir.com/2012/08/how-secure-is-your-cloud-take-...

bsder 12y ago

Um, why is there a running assumption that this is the Chinese government? A Chinese manufacturer has even more incentive to steal information and sell it given the razor thin margins on making these phones.

mrbill 12y ago

There's a ton of these generic MTK-processor-based phones available online; I bought and played with a few a year or two ago. They range from "really crappy" to "pretty nice", but in most all cases you're stuck with the version of Android that they ship with, as there's no ongoing support, no upgrades from the vendor, etc.

vampirechicken 12y ago

The entire american telecom infrastructure is rife with spyware. Why should chinese telecom be any different?

lyinawake 12y ago

Read this as "Chinese people come preloaded with spyware". Was disappointed when my brain debugged it's sensory input.

etiam 12y ago

How are we doing for FOSS cell phones again?

nnnnni 12y ago
I think that there may be ONE option. RMS probably has it...
- slashdotaccount 12y ago
  It really depends on how FLOSS you want to go? On the software side of things the closest you can get is a phone running OsmocomBB. That only runs on some dumphones and is not useful from a user perspective, it is only for research. For smartphone software, the closest you can get is a phone running Replicant. That still has all the embedded proprietary software; baseband OS, bootloader, wifi/bluetooth/camera firmware etc. On the hardware side of things, we have no ASICs with libre designs. I think there have been some cases with libre designs but none manufactured in large quantities. There are myriad patents covering various hardware processes, instruction sets, CPU stuff etc. See bunnie's talk about layers of openness and the Novena laptop for more on this. RMS uses other people's phones, he doesn't have one himself, mainly due to the network side of things though.
  - nnnnni 12y ago
    Wow, I guess that there aren't really any "fully open" phones in that case. For the truly paranoid (with or without reason), I guess that they would have to go the RMS route -- or find a payphone that isn't within sight of a security camera.

eevilspock 12y ago

The NSA deliberately weakened crypto keys/code. How is that any different?

briandh 12y ago
Even if it were the same, it would still be news.
- eevilspock 12y ago
  Agreed. But my question is still valid (and not deserving of the down votes) given that so many Americans do not react to their government's privacy and anti-democratic intrusions with the same disdain they have toward China's.

varkson 12y ago

I'm currently using an offbrand Chinese Android phone, so this news has made me very very nervous.

hucxsz 12y ago
Why you think this is true?
- varkson 12y ago
  Well, I just don't know. I don't have the same phone this but it's made me wonder.

gbin 12y ago

Am I the only one to find this article really thin ? Where is the disassembled code ? To whom the public key that signed the software belongs too ? Which server it sends the info to exactly ? If you start to get as paranoid as the entire forum is at the moment accusing blindly Apple, Google, Qualcomm etc. Why nobody asks for a simple piece of evidence for anything ? This could really be a cheap manipulation ... Edit: grammar

userbinator 12y ago

More info here, this has been known for some time already: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=53391745 http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=53391745 http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2395007 http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2395007 Fortunately the solution is pretty simple, as these generic MTK devices are all easy to root and reflash with new firmware.