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I think there's a pretty strong argument for moving to a Pittsburgh on sabbatical, but while I'm working I'd definitely stay in NYC/SF. Salaries here are subst

I think there's a pretty strong argument for moving to a Pittsburgh on sabbatical, but while I'm working I'd definitely stay in NYC/SF. Salaries here are substantially higher (I doubt devs make $150k+ in Pittsburgh, in NYC that's very achievable), and that makes a huge difference in accumulating savings. Yes, living expenses are proportionally higher here as well so I'm still only left with a small percentage of my paycheck. But that small percentage means a lot more because it can be spent on global goods like travel or savings. Spending a couple grand on a vacation is basically a rounding error in a NYC budget, but it'd be a decent chunk of a Pittsburgh salary. Similarly, saving just a bit of my income in NYC for a few years makes it easy to build up a large nest egg for a down payment on a beautiful house somewhere like Pittsburgh. If I'm way off base, someone please let me know. If it's actually possible to make $150k+ in a cheap area, or with remote work, I'd be interested to hear.

badman_ting 12y ago
That has been my way of thinking too. Another consideration is student loans - if you pay $500 a month in loans, that will be a smaller portion of an NYC salary. Same for any purchase or bill which is unrelated to cost of living.
steveklabnik 12y ago
"Pittsburgh" has an "h" at the end, and Pittsburghers will get really annoyed by this. You almost made my eye start twitching. ;) Sorry, I don't mean to be a jerk. Just wanted to let you know.
- benburton 12y ago
  > Sorry, I don't mean to be a jagoff. Fixed that for you ;)
  - steveklabnik 12y ago
    Ha! As someone who grew up half an hour _outside_ the city, it's been interesting to see which chunks of Pittsburghese I picked up, and which ones I didn't. Some if it is also age: my grandfather speaks with a more significant amount of it than I do, even though his home was half a mile from my childhood one.
    - benburton 12y ago
      I spend a lot of time with my wife's older relatives, and I have picked up quite a bit of it. The most confusing to me is the positive usage of the word 'anymore', e.g., "It seems I always wear these shoes anymore."
      - stephencanon 12y ago
        anymore is a regional thing; you'll hear it in pockets of Appalachia from western PA down to Kentucky and Tennessee.
- morgante 12y ago
  Sorry, fixed that and thanks for the heads up. The h is very unusual.
  - steveklabnik 12y ago
    No worries. It actually has a really rich backstory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_Pittsburgh#Official_elimination_and_restoration_of_the_.27h.27 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_Pittsburgh#Officia...
- rickdale 12y ago
  I recently saw a real life crime mystery show where they proved a guy had written an email under someone elses address by noticing "Pittsburgh" was spelled without the 'h' in the email. He had murdered a girl and then sent emails to her family from her account saying she would be in 'Pittsburg'. Being from Pittsburgh the spelling immediately raised red flags for the family.
  - tzs 12y ago
    I was watching a TV dramatization about the Steven Stayner kidnap case [1], and at one point the sheriff said something about dredging "the Bear Creek" to search for a body. I lived in that town from age 7 or 8 until I left for college (and was living there when Stayner disappeared), including a few years living near Bear Creek, and do not recall ever hearing anyone call it "the Bear Creek". It was just "Bear Creek". It immediately flagged the screenplay for me as having been written by someone not from there [2]. I thought this was kind of neat, because as far as I can tell there is no rule that determines what places get a "the" and which do not. It just seems to be arbitrary, and so someone just grabbing the name off a map has no way to know whether or not the locals put a "the" in front or not. I bet there are lots of little linguistic traps like this waiting to trip up people trying to pretend to be from somewhere they are not. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Steven_Stayner http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Steven_Stayner [2] It's possible, of course, that people from different parts of town referred to that creek differently.
    - steveklabnik 12y ago
      > as far as I can tell there is no rule that determines what places get a "the" and which do not. I was recently looking up the difference between "the Ukraine" and "Ukraine," because people really prefer the second. It was said that 'the' is used when shortening the name: "the Bahamas" instead of "Kingdom of the Bahamas." "The Ukraine" comes from when it was a territory of the USSR, rather than a country in its own right, and when it gained independence, it was just "Ukraine." Some food for thought.
benburton 12y ago
> If it's actually possible to make $150k+ in a cheap area, or with remote work, I'd be interested to hear. It's possible with remote work (I know at least a few people who do), it's just difficult to find those opportunities.
- johnward 12y ago
  I know developers in Pittsburgh that were making 120-150k at FedEx Ground HQ. I know plenty that make over 100k. Although I see postings for 45k and wonder if they ever fill them. I'm not a Dev but I make almost 90k. If I moved to California I could probably find something at 120k but I don't know that 30k is enough of a difference. If you are talking about 50k vs 150k then it's a no-brainer to move.
  - jaaron 12y ago
    Yeah, but then you're working for FedEx. FEDEX. I'm sorry, but Pittsburgh has very few software companies that provide the sort of training, environment, experience and challenge that allow an area to develop and produce top technical talent. Yes, Pittsburgh has great universities, a small startup scene, and some amazing medical and applied science companies, but the software development industry there is extremely small. I lived there until I was 26. I worked 5 years for Sony out in westmoreland county. When I started to do some freelance work, I had local Pittsburgh recruiters tell me I could never make what I was aiming for. So I took a contract just a few hours away in Philly that paid double what I could get in Pittsburgh. I don't know if there's a single firm in Pittsburgh, aside from perhaps Google, that could match the salary I currently have or the offers I've had from large tech firms in LA, San Francisco, Seattle and NYC.
    - johnward 12y ago
      I work for IBM now in Pittsburgh. I think I get what you are saying. There are jobs in Pittsburgh that pay that much but they aren't jobs you would want. FedEx was pretty terrible but if you were the kind of person that could put up with an environment like that you could make good money. IBM has been surprising not as terrible as I thought it would be.
jpadkins 12y ago
NetApp, Google, Apple, PNC, UPMC, and a few others pay experienced devs over $150k. Medical device companies may, I don't have first hand knowledge (they pay UX consultants the same rate as in CA). Dev jobs in IT depts of industrial firms won't pay that much, nor will web startups. But that is the same as the bay area. My personal experience (10 years in mnt view, 4 years in Pittsburgh): not even close when you compare free cash flow. I have way more now in pittsburgh for savings, vacations, etc. You have to consider total cost of living (taxes, real estate, cost of living, etc). I'd estimate even with 25% more salary in CA, you would have more spending money in PA. The big thing you give up is diversity of jobs and choice. If you like to hop around a lot, try new things, there are simply not as many good options. I'd still recommend bay area right out of school, but seriously consider Pittsburgh, Seattle, Austin, Raleigh, etc when you are at the stage you want to buy a house.
ry0ohki 12y ago
The salaries are not that much lower, and the cost of living is so significantly lower that you'd net more in Pittsburgh. I live in Pittsburgh and have had several jobs that pay over $100k. You can rent an apartment in the nicest hippest area here for $800/month (or less). You can own a home in a reasonable area for under $100k. I speak from experience as sure my paycheck was larger when I lived in DC, but I could never afford to own a single family home. Now I own what would be the equivalent of a mansion in DC for less then what my suburban Maryland townhouse went for.

badman_ting 12y ago

That has been my way of thinking too. Another consideration is student loans - if you pay $500 a month in loans, that will be a smaller portion of an NYC salary. Same for any purchase or bill which is unrelated to cost of living.

steveklabnik 12y ago

"Pittsburgh" has an "h" at the end, and Pittsburghers will get really annoyed by this. You almost made my eye start twitching. ;) Sorry, I don't mean to be a jerk. Just wanted to let you know.

benburton 12y ago
> Sorry, I don't mean to be a jagoff. Fixed that for you ;)
- steveklabnik 12y ago
  Ha! As someone who grew up half an hour _outside_ the city, it's been interesting to see which chunks of Pittsburghese I picked up, and which ones I didn't. Some if it is also age: my grandfather speaks with a more significant amount of it than I do, even though his home was half a mile from my childhood one.
  - benburton 12y ago
    I spend a lot of time with my wife's older relatives, and I have picked up quite a bit of it. The most confusing to me is the positive usage of the word 'anymore', e.g., "It seems I always wear these shoes anymore."
    - stephencanon 12y ago
      anymore is a regional thing; you'll hear it in pockets of Appalachia from western PA down to Kentucky and Tennessee.
morgante 12y ago
Sorry, fixed that and thanks for the heads up. The h is very unusual.
- steveklabnik 12y ago
  No worries. It actually has a really rich backstory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_Pittsburgh#Official_elimination_and_restoration_of_the_.27h.27 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_Pittsburgh#Officia...
rickdale 12y ago
I recently saw a real life crime mystery show where they proved a guy had written an email under someone elses address by noticing "Pittsburgh" was spelled without the 'h' in the email. He had murdered a girl and then sent emails to her family from her account saying she would be in 'Pittsburg'. Being from Pittsburgh the spelling immediately raised red flags for the family.
- tzs 12y ago
  I was watching a TV dramatization about the Steven Stayner kidnap case [1], and at one point the sheriff said something about dredging "the Bear Creek" to search for a body. I lived in that town from age 7 or 8 until I left for college (and was living there when Stayner disappeared), including a few years living near Bear Creek, and do not recall ever hearing anyone call it "the Bear Creek". It was just "Bear Creek". It immediately flagged the screenplay for me as having been written by someone not from there [2]. I thought this was kind of neat, because as far as I can tell there is no rule that determines what places get a "the" and which do not. It just seems to be arbitrary, and so someone just grabbing the name off a map has no way to know whether or not the locals put a "the" in front or not. I bet there are lots of little linguistic traps like this waiting to trip up people trying to pretend to be from somewhere they are not. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Steven_Stayner http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Steven_Stayner [2] It's possible, of course, that people from different parts of town referred to that creek differently.
  - steveklabnik 12y ago
    > as far as I can tell there is no rule that determines what places get a "the" and which do not. I was recently looking up the difference between "the Ukraine" and "Ukraine," because people really prefer the second. It was said that 'the' is used when shortening the name: "the Bahamas" instead of "Kingdom of the Bahamas." "The Ukraine" comes from when it was a territory of the USSR, rather than a country in its own right, and when it gained independence, it was just "Ukraine." Some food for thought.

benburton 12y ago

> If it's actually possible to make $150k+ in a cheap area, or with remote work, I'd be interested to hear. It's possible with remote work (I know at least a few people who do), it's just difficult to find those opportunities.

johnward 12y ago
I know developers in Pittsburgh that were making 120-150k at FedEx Ground HQ. I know plenty that make over 100k. Although I see postings for 45k and wonder if they ever fill them. I'm not a Dev but I make almost 90k. If I moved to California I could probably find something at 120k but I don't know that 30k is enough of a difference. If you are talking about 50k vs 150k then it's a no-brainer to move.
- jaaron 12y ago
  Yeah, but then you're working for FedEx. FEDEX. I'm sorry, but Pittsburgh has very few software companies that provide the sort of training, environment, experience and challenge that allow an area to develop and produce top technical talent. Yes, Pittsburgh has great universities, a small startup scene, and some amazing medical and applied science companies, but the software development industry there is extremely small. I lived there until I was 26. I worked 5 years for Sony out in westmoreland county. When I started to do some freelance work, I had local Pittsburgh recruiters tell me I could never make what I was aiming for. So I took a contract just a few hours away in Philly that paid double what I could get in Pittsburgh. I don't know if there's a single firm in Pittsburgh, aside from perhaps Google, that could match the salary I currently have or the offers I've had from large tech firms in LA, San Francisco, Seattle and NYC.
  - johnward 12y ago
    I work for IBM now in Pittsburgh. I think I get what you are saying. There are jobs in Pittsburgh that pay that much but they aren't jobs you would want. FedEx was pretty terrible but if you were the kind of person that could put up with an environment like that you could make good money. IBM has been surprising not as terrible as I thought it would be.

jpadkins 12y ago

NetApp, Google, Apple, PNC, UPMC, and a few others pay experienced devs over $150k. Medical device companies may, I don't have first hand knowledge (they pay UX consultants the same rate as in CA). Dev jobs in IT depts of industrial firms won't pay that much, nor will web startups. But that is the same as the bay area. My personal experience (10 years in mnt view, 4 years in Pittsburgh): not even close when you compare free cash flow. I have way more now in pittsburgh for savings, vacations, etc. You have to consider total cost of living (taxes, real estate, cost of living, etc). I'd estimate even with 25% more salary in CA, you would have more spending money in PA. The big thing you give up is diversity of jobs and choice. If you like to hop around a lot, try new things, there are simply not as many good options. I'd still recommend bay area right out of school, but seriously consider Pittsburgh, Seattle, Austin, Raleigh, etc when you are at the stage you want to buy a house.

ry0ohki 12y ago

The salaries are not that much lower, and the cost of living is so significantly lower that you'd net more in Pittsburgh. I live in Pittsburgh and have had several jobs that pay over $100k. You can rent an apartment in the nicest hippest area here for $800/month (or less). You can own a home in a reasonable area for under $100k. I speak from experience as sure my paycheck was larger when I lived in DC, but I could never afford to own a single family home. Now I own what would be the equivalent of a mansion in DC for less then what my suburban Maryland townhouse went for.