4 ms·

It's not really confusing unless you ask the ISPs. NN is all about treating all traffic equally. No QoS on the ISP level.

danielweber 12y ago
Thank you for the demonstration of "what NN really is".
Karunamon 12y ago
ISP QoS is fine as long as it's by type and not by source/destination. It's perfectly reasonable to expect all those people torrenting the latest Game of Thrones shouldn't impact other people's Skype calls. This isn't a value judgement on anything, mind, it's all about what the application needs in order to work. A torrent can still download on a congested network. A VoIP call will have great difficulty on same.
- bitJericho 12y ago
  If the ISP can't pipe the advertised bandwidth that's not the user's fault. The torrenter's absolutely should be allowed to fill up the pipes. As for torrenting, there's also a uTP which is supposed to help mitigate some issues at the ISP level. That all said, if you don't agree that QoS should not be allowed at the ISP level than you don't agree with NN. It's really not complicated.
  - Karunamon 12y ago
    Advertised bandwidth is always an "up to" number, not a dedicated pipe. If you want that, you want business class service at a significant price premium. >The torrenter's absolutely should be allowed to fill up the pipes. And the Skypers should absolutely be allowed to have their calls. QoS ensures that everyone has a minimum usable level of service. QoS and net neutrality are two different things, as previously mentioned. If you'd like to argue otherwise, you'll have to do better than simply gain-say my definition.
    - bitJericho 12y ago
      If the network doesn't have the throughput, then QoS makes sense. However, QoS is by definition not NN
      - Karunamon 12y ago
        Again, you really fail to explain why you think packet prioritization based on type is the exact same thing as packet prioritization based on source and destination. The latter is always anticompetitive at the ISP level, the former can be, but needs to exist to operate a network of any decent size.
        bitJericho 12y ago
        Please explain why it needs to exist? All my packets, no matter what they are, should have equal access to another person's packets on the same network. I myself will employ QoS so that my packets are arranged how I like them in the bandwidth provided by my ISP. If my ISP cannot give me sustained bandwidth, then I don't receive proper internet service where anything but browsing and maybe streaming will be great. In that case, I expect to pay less, not to have the ISP implement some technology to decide my traffic isn't as important as my neighbor's skype chat.
        Karunamon 12y ago
        The why is simple. Bandwidth is limited on a given time scale and load is unpredictable. QoS ensures that all of your customers receive a minimum usable level of service. If a bunch of people run off to download a given torrent simultaneously, blowing well past average projected usage and you're not packet shaping, anything that relies on real time packet transfers on that network is hosed. It's that simple. It's ensuring that a minority of customers can't fuck up the service for the majority. Everything you've mentioned so far is a lot of statement with no backup. You want "sustained bandwidth" - this is not a thing that most ISPs sell to normal customers at rates mere mortals can afford, and for good reason. All my packets, no matter what they are, should have equal access to another person's packets on the same network. QoS's entire raison d'etre is ensuring this equal access by making sure sudden high load does not negatively impact the service for everyone else. Would you prefer your call quality/game/video not get shitty when the latest GoT episode comes out? Or would you prefer a complete wild-west free for all where the "bandwidth hogs" can quite literally ruin a service for everyone? And don't say "expand capacity", either. Nobody in the world, not even Google, has the ability to deliver their max advertised bandwidth to all subscribers simultaneously. Please, for your own sanity, learn the difference between average speed and max speed.

danielweber 12y ago

Thank you for the demonstration of "what NN really is".

Karunamon 12y ago

ISP QoS is fine as long as it's by type and not by source/destination. It's perfectly reasonable to expect all those people torrenting the latest Game of Thrones shouldn't impact other people's Skype calls. This isn't a value judgement on anything, mind, it's all about what the application needs in order to work. A torrent can still download on a congested network. A VoIP call will have great difficulty on same.

bitJericho 12y ago
If the ISP can't pipe the advertised bandwidth that's not the user's fault. The torrenter's absolutely should be allowed to fill up the pipes. As for torrenting, there's also a uTP which is supposed to help mitigate some issues at the ISP level. That all said, if you don't agree that QoS should not be allowed at the ISP level than you don't agree with NN. It's really not complicated.
- Karunamon 12y ago
  Advertised bandwidth is always an "up to" number, not a dedicated pipe. If you want that, you want business class service at a significant price premium. >The torrenter's absolutely should be allowed to fill up the pipes. And the Skypers should absolutely be allowed to have their calls. QoS ensures that everyone has a minimum usable level of service. QoS and net neutrality are two different things, as previously mentioned. If you'd like to argue otherwise, you'll have to do better than simply gain-say my definition.
  - bitJericho 12y ago
    If the network doesn't have the throughput, then QoS makes sense. However, QoS is by definition not NN
    - Karunamon 12y ago
      Again, you really fail to explain why you think packet prioritization based on type is the exact same thing as packet prioritization based on source and destination. The latter is always anticompetitive at the ISP level, the former can be, but needs to exist to operate a network of any decent size.
      - bitJericho 12y ago
        Please explain why it needs to exist? All my packets, no matter what they are, should have equal access to another person's packets on the same network. I myself will employ QoS so that my packets are arranged how I like them in the bandwidth provided by my ISP. If my ISP cannot give me sustained bandwidth, then I don't receive proper internet service where anything but browsing and maybe streaming will be great. In that case, I expect to pay less, not to have the ISP implement some technology to decide my traffic isn't as important as my neighbor's skype chat.
        Karunamon 12y ago
        The why is simple. Bandwidth is limited on a given time scale and load is unpredictable. QoS ensures that all of your customers receive a minimum usable level of service. If a bunch of people run off to download a given torrent simultaneously, blowing well past average projected usage and you're not packet shaping, anything that relies on real time packet transfers on that network is hosed. It's that simple. It's ensuring that a minority of customers can't fuck up the service for the majority. Everything you've mentioned so far is a lot of statement with no backup. You want "sustained bandwidth" - this is not a thing that most ISPs sell to normal customers at rates mere mortals can afford, and for good reason. All my packets, no matter what they are, should have equal access to another person's packets on the same network. QoS's entire raison d'etre is ensuring this equal access by making sure sudden high load does not negatively impact the service for everyone else. Would you prefer your call quality/game/video not get shitty when the latest GoT episode comes out? Or would you prefer a complete wild-west free for all where the "bandwidth hogs" can quite literally ruin a service for everyone? And don't say "expand capacity", either. Nobody in the world, not even Google, has the ability to deliver their max advertised bandwidth to all subscribers simultaneously. Please, for your own sanity, learn the difference between average speed and max speed.