6 ms·

>'Whereas the American one seems incapable of delivering anything with less than a 6-month waiting list..' My family was on a wait list for housing assistance

>'Whereas the American one seems incapable of delivering anything with less than a 6-month waiting list..' My family was on a wait list for housing assistance from the time I was a child until I dropped out of school and started working, making us ineligible. The list is currently closed and was last open over half a decade ago, for less than two weeks - like something out of a fantasy novel. >...with an extremely bureaucratic and unfriendly process almost always serving as the gatekeeper.' Well, there's a popular notion in the US that the process should be as difficult and unfriendly as possible - that people seeking public assistance are not just lazy, but living well. The 'welfare queen' [1] still haunts the system 40 years later. 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_queen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_queen

msandford 12y ago
The problem is that while there are a great many deserving people who wouldn't abuse the system, there are also plenty who would. Worse is that if you overhear one person on the bus (like I did when I was in college) talking about having another child so she could get a larger welfare check, it has a way of getting to you. It's an anecdote so it doesn't really count from a scientific perspective. But emotionally, that's HUGE. When I use my brain I realize that it would be far more effective to cut the military budget by 10% than the welfare budget by 10% in terms of reducing taxes. But somehow I still feel some kind of moral outrage about the person who considered a welfare payment her divine right for existing rather than a temporary thing that well-intentioned people created for the sake of trying to help lift less fortunate folks out of poverty. Emotionally I feel less bad about the military because at least something's getting done as a result. People have jobs (even if they're not the most efficient) and technology is advanced (even at a cost greater than a private company might capable of) and actual tangible things happen. In some ways that's easier to justify, even if that justification is completely wrong given the graft and corruption that's rampant in the military-industrial complex. It also is very upsetting from a felt-justice perspective. Here I am working hard end paying my taxes so that (in a very, very small way $ or % wise) I'm empowering someone else to just sit around and get paid to do nothing but pop out babies and raise them poorly. Thinking critically I realize that I have no actual idea what my opinion of acceptable false positives and false negatives is, or how the system actually performs irrespective of my judgement. But as human beings we're wired to reject "unjust" gains for others even at our own expense. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimatum_game http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimatum_game "Well, there's a popular notion in the US that the process should be as difficult and unfriendly as possible - that people seeking public assistance are not just lazy, but living well. The 'welfare queen' [1] still haunts the system 40 years later." It's hard to not feel as though it might still be happening in a measurable way when you can read articles like this: http://www.salon.com/2010/03/16/hipsters_food_stamps_pinched/ http://www.salon.com/2010/03/16/hipsters_food_stamps_pinched... Again, I realize that it's ENTIRELY possible that the subjects of this article are the exception rather than the rule. But it's hard to use your brain rather than react to your emotions when this kind of thing gets written up. Ultimately the problem is that not everyone can think critically all the time about everything and then react appropriately.
- tobr 12y ago
  > Here I am working hard end paying my taxes so that (in a very, very small way $ or % wise) I'm empowering someone else to just sit around and get paid to do nothing but pop out babies and raise them poorly. Personally, what causes me to feel moral outrage is when I encounter this sort of derogatory statements, aimed at the poor. Based on something once overheard on a bus, nonetheless. The fact that there is a tiny percentage abusing the help is a very poor excuse for not giving help to the much, much larger percentage of people who are deeply, genuinely in need of it. As a continuation of your realization that your opinions are probably based on irrational emotions: why is this irrational anger aimed at the part of society that is least well off? For instance, I wonder what is the percentage of actually rich people who are payed with tax dollars to do nothing of value, or even something destructive.
  - msandford 12y ago
    >> Here I am working hard end paying my taxes so that (in a very, very small way $ or % wise) I'm empowering someone else to just sit around and get paid to do nothing but pop out babies and raise them poorly. >Personally, what causes me to feel moral outrage is when I encounter this sort of derogatory statements, aimed at the poor. Based on something once overheard on a bus, nonetheless. The idea that I overheard it on a bus makes it less credible doesn't really hold water in my mind. It was in an informal setting and thus more likely to be true. And if someone's motivation to have another child is to collect more welfare I'm not so convinced that it's an entirely unreasonable assumption that they're not going to do the best job raising them. If this mother couldn't think through the thoughts necessary to realize that welfare shouldn't be a system that you milk for all it's worth and instead is a system designed to help you get back on your feet (at least ostensibly) then I'm not so confident she's going to do a stellar job of everything else. She might very well teach them through actions if not words, that going on welfare is preferable to real work. That's a potent recipe for dependency. >The fact that there is a tiny percentage abusing the help is a very poor excuse for not giving help to the much, much larger percentage of people who are deeply, genuinely in need of it. That's a big fat [citation needed]. Furthermore if you assume that those who are abusing the system know the right things to say when they're interviewed or to put down on the forms I can't really figure out how you could reasonably determine the percentage of people abusing the system. Hire a million PIs to follow folks around? It's not as though the people fill out forms and check the box that says "I am lying about my need" which first off, isn't there and second would obviously disqualify them. Furthermore if you look at this comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7903788 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7903788) it reinforces the notion that abuse is rampant. Finally I think it's incredibly offensive that you assume you know how I feel about the rich based on what I've said about SOME poor folks who are abusing welfare. You might THINK you know, but that does not translate into actual knowledge. In reality I hate all rent-seekers rich and poor alike. If you want an income you should have to work for it like everyone else. I find the idea that someone can eat, sleep and live off the hard work of others morally outrageous. It doesn't matter to me the amount of ill-gotten gains that allows people to squander their lives without doing anything useful for society.

msandford 12y ago

The problem is that while there are a great many deserving people who wouldn't abuse the system, there are also plenty who would. Worse is that if you overhear one person on the bus (like I did when I was in college) talking about having another child so she could get a larger welfare check, it has a way of getting to you. It's an anecdote so it doesn't really count from a scientific perspective. But emotionally, that's HUGE. When I use my brain I realize that it would be far more effective to cut the military budget by 10% than the welfare budget by 10% in terms of reducing taxes. But somehow I still feel some kind of moral outrage about the person who considered a welfare payment her divine right for existing rather than a temporary thing that well-intentioned people created for the sake of trying to help lift less fortunate folks out of poverty. Emotionally I feel less bad about the military because at least something's getting done as a result. People have jobs (even if they're not the most efficient) and technology is advanced (even at a cost greater than a private company might capable of) and actual tangible things happen. In some ways that's easier to justify, even if that justification is completely wrong given the graft and corruption that's rampant in the military-industrial complex. It also is very upsetting from a felt-justice perspective. Here I am working hard end paying my taxes so that (in a very, very small way $ or % wise) I'm empowering someone else to just sit around and get paid to do nothing but pop out babies and raise them poorly. Thinking critically I realize that I have no actual idea what my opinion of acceptable false positives and false negatives is, or how the system actually performs irrespective of my judgement. But as human beings we're wired to reject "unjust" gains for others even at our own expense. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimatum_game http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimatum_game "Well, there's a popular notion in the US that the process should be as difficult and unfriendly as possible - that people seeking public assistance are not just lazy, but living well. The 'welfare queen' [1] still haunts the system 40 years later." It's hard to not feel as though it might still be happening in a measurable way when you can read articles like this: http://www.salon.com/2010/03/16/hipsters_food_stamps_pinched/ http://www.salon.com/2010/03/16/hipsters_food_stamps_pinched... Again, I realize that it's ENTIRELY possible that the subjects of this article are the exception rather than the rule. But it's hard to use your brain rather than react to your emotions when this kind of thing gets written up. Ultimately the problem is that not everyone can think critically all the time about everything and then react appropriately.

tobr 12y ago
> Here I am working hard end paying my taxes so that (in a very, very small way $ or % wise) I'm empowering someone else to just sit around and get paid to do nothing but pop out babies and raise them poorly. Personally, what causes me to feel moral outrage is when I encounter this sort of derogatory statements, aimed at the poor. Based on something once overheard on a bus, nonetheless. The fact that there is a tiny percentage abusing the help is a very poor excuse for not giving help to the much, much larger percentage of people who are deeply, genuinely in need of it. As a continuation of your realization that your opinions are probably based on irrational emotions: why is this irrational anger aimed at the part of society that is least well off? For instance, I wonder what is the percentage of actually rich people who are payed with tax dollars to do nothing of value, or even something destructive.
- msandford 12y ago
  >> Here I am working hard end paying my taxes so that (in a very, very small way $ or % wise) I'm empowering someone else to just sit around and get paid to do nothing but pop out babies and raise them poorly. >Personally, what causes me to feel moral outrage is when I encounter this sort of derogatory statements, aimed at the poor. Based on something once overheard on a bus, nonetheless. The idea that I overheard it on a bus makes it less credible doesn't really hold water in my mind. It was in an informal setting and thus more likely to be true. And if someone's motivation to have another child is to collect more welfare I'm not so convinced that it's an entirely unreasonable assumption that they're not going to do the best job raising them. If this mother couldn't think through the thoughts necessary to realize that welfare shouldn't be a system that you milk for all it's worth and instead is a system designed to help you get back on your feet (at least ostensibly) then I'm not so confident she's going to do a stellar job of everything else. She might very well teach them through actions if not words, that going on welfare is preferable to real work. That's a potent recipe for dependency. >The fact that there is a tiny percentage abusing the help is a very poor excuse for not giving help to the much, much larger percentage of people who are deeply, genuinely in need of it. That's a big fat [citation needed]. Furthermore if you assume that those who are abusing the system know the right things to say when they're interviewed or to put down on the forms I can't really figure out how you could reasonably determine the percentage of people abusing the system. Hire a million PIs to follow folks around? It's not as though the people fill out forms and check the box that says "I am lying about my need" which first off, isn't there and second would obviously disqualify them. Furthermore if you look at this comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7903788 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7903788) it reinforces the notion that abuse is rampant. Finally I think it's incredibly offensive that you assume you know how I feel about the rich based on what I've said about SOME poor folks who are abusing welfare. You might THINK you know, but that does not translate into actual knowledge. In reality I hate all rent-seekers rich and poor alike. If you want an income you should have to work for it like everyone else. I find the idea that someone can eat, sleep and live off the hard work of others morally outrageous. It doesn't matter to me the amount of ill-gotten gains that allows people to squander their lives without doing anything useful for society.