9 ms·

Why don't you want to be a full time employee?

90 points by mvid 12y ago

basicallydan 12y ago
I'm a fairly new addition to the world of software contracting and I often have trouble trying to express my feelings about full-time work and the justification of the amount I charge (which so far has been below normal contractor rates). Thank you for explaining your point view in an eloquent way, it's helpful :)
- mvid 12y ago
  Thanks! I actually came up with the idea for this post so I would have something to respond with in recruiter emails.
  - mrfusion 12y ago
    Do you get a lot of work through recruiters? I never know if it's worth responding to them. Any tips in that area?
    - mvid 12y ago
      None so far. Generally they are only interested in trying to convince you to give up consulting. Sometimes they will pitch you on a contract-to-hire position, but most companies want to hire engineers on the cheap.
    - edoceo 12y ago
      I've had a few (1/10) recruiters help me get consulting gigs. I prefer to pull my own however. You are better at selling yourself to the right gig than any recruiter could be.
paf31 12y ago
> With minor advertising and effort, I have more inbound work requests than I can personally take on. I'm very much interested in moving more towards contract-based employment, so I would love to hear more about the mechanics of getting off the ground, and any recommendations for advertising my services etc.
- mvid 12y ago
  I might write a new post about getting started, but essentially I just strung up a portfolio website on strikingly.com and a google apps account. FigBug is right, most of your work will end up coming through people you know, you can augment that by hitting up meetup groups and hackerspaces.
- theandrewbailey 12y ago
  I just watched a webinar about freelancing. Although it's not specifically about getting off the ground, it is touched on a bit. http://doubleyourfreelancingrate.com/w/clientsfromhell.html http://doubleyourfreelancingrate.com/w/clientsfromhell.html You should get a link to the recorded webinar when you sign up.
- FigBug 12y ago
  I've been a contractor since 2010. I've never had any problem finding work. I have received 1 job through my website, everything else has been through contacts. Before contracting I had 10 years as an employee of various companies. I think it is much harder to do contracting with less than about 5 years experience, you just won't have the contacts. There is no trick to what I do, whenever I run into an old colleague, I tell them I'm contracting now. They will either have or know somebody looking for my skills. I've even gone back to companies I worked as an employee and helped them during crunch time. I think when you are employed full time, people are reluctant to make you offers, but as soon as you are a available the offers seem to appear.
- acconrad 12y ago
  Try the HN freelancer posts every month, just respond to requests that fit your skill set, compete on price and over-deliver.
- maxmzd_ 12y ago
  AngelList is a great resource. Fill out your profile, connect with people you know, and list yourself as a contractor. Then go through jobs looking for contractors and hit "Yes." This is how I've found 90% of my contract work over the past 3 years (in the Bay Area).
greenyoda 12y ago
The linked article by David Brady, "Loyalty and Layoffs", is also a good read: http://heartmindcode.com/2013/08/16/loyalty-and-layoffs/ http://heartmindcode.com/2013/08/16/loyalty-and-layoffs/ Brady's article was also posted to HN 10 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6240495 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6240495
- mvid 12y ago
  If you are going to read one article, it should be David's. It's the article I used to send around when people asked me this question.
Joeboy 12y ago
For now, I don't want to be a full time employee because the capitalists reward me well for forgoing the security and rights I would have as an employee. I am nevertheless concerned that casualisation of labour is not a healthy trend for society overall.
canterburry 12y ago
I consulted for around 7 years as an independent and my feelings align pretty much 100% with those of the author. People are disposable resources on par with other equipment and machinery in today's business world. Getting paid anything less than full market value (including cost of benefits and a premium for being disposable) just doesn't make sense. The only company I work for is Me Inc. However, after attaining pretty much the highest level I could as a consultant (i.e. running teams of employees who reported to me) I hit a ceiling. I found myself at a level within the company from which I could never advance if I didn't become an employee. I stayed at this level for several years and decided it was limiting my growth as an individual. So, I've been working as an employee for the last 4 years with mixed emotion. My sentiment remains the same but at least I have advanced far enough now that my compensation is on par with when I was a consultant. Dream of going independent again every day though.
- mvid 12y ago
  I can see this being an issue the longer you work as a consultant. My intention was to eventually shift into self built products that bring in continuous income, or found a venture backed startup. I think that is the general sentiment of most consultants in the bay area.
  - canterburry 12y ago
    Yes, that's what I do at night these days.
- smallegan 12y ago
  The trick to getting around this cap is to be running teams of your own employees.
  - canterburry 12y ago
    As a product company, any day! As a consultancy, never. Going on vacation as a consultant makes you acutely aware of how consulting revenue scales like crap. I've literally had 2 week vacations which cost me $20K+ ($5K in travel and $15K in lost revenue). I'd frequently joke with my wife that she should really enjoy sipping that $100 bottle of beer on the beach.
zerr 12y ago
Because "full time" most likely means 40+ hours per week.
rcvassallo 12y ago
I've recently made the decision to go full-time consulting after a year of balancing contract work on the side with full-time employment. In my experience one of the biggest reason to avoid being a full-time employee is the difficulty in climbing the value chain. As a consultant, I'm a trusted advisor that helps my client bring their business to the next level. As an employee, I'm just maintaining the ship. I'm sure you can guess which one brings in more money :)
qwerta 12y ago
Perhaps we should define what is full-time employee. I am consultant, but I have only single customer/employer who reimburses my expenses without much questions. And I make similar money compared to my old corporate 9-5 job, adjusted for taxes, insurance and holiday. I think after you hit certain level of specialization, being self-employed is the only option.
- atwebb 12y ago
  Careful spouting that off (if you're US based), it sounds like, though you're both ok with it, your employer could be liable for incorrectly classifying you as an independent contractor. You may have been aware already but if not I'd take a look at it if you're in the US. EDIT: Checked the link in your profile, just leaving my comment so US folks are aware.
  - qwerta 12y ago
    I live in Europe and my client is American company. That is pretty much only possible arrangement since they have no presence here. Also being employee would mean to give-up my copyright, which I am not that keen to do.
Ryel 12y ago
How do you handle contracts? Assuming each client has their own terms, and you have your own... Have you found any tricks to reaching a quick agreement that maintains your freedom?
- mvid 12y ago
  In general, most clients use a template contract. An accountant and a lawyer are going to be required if you become serious about consulting.
- rcvassallo 12y ago
  In my experience, this is something you can learn as you go. To get my first major gig started, a 1-page proposal that outlined how my services would help the client fulfill their goals was enough. A formal contract came later and we have been working together for a year now. In fact, the client was asking "Where do I sign?" before I even mentioned the formal proposal. What I learned was that the right clients care about their results and whether you can get them there first and foremost. Pricing and contracts are afterthoughts.

90 points by mvid 12y ago

I'm a fairly new addition to the world of software contracting and I often have trouble trying to express my feelings about full-time work and the justification of the amount I charge (which so far has been below normal contractor rates). Thank you for explaining your point view in an eloquent way, it's helpful :)

mvid 12y ago
Thanks! I actually came up with the idea for this post so I would have something to respond with in recruiter emails.
- mrfusion 12y ago
  Do you get a lot of work through recruiters? I never know if it's worth responding to them. Any tips in that area?
  - mvid 12y ago
    None so far. Generally they are only interested in trying to convince you to give up consulting. Sometimes they will pitch you on a contract-to-hire position, but most companies want to hire engineers on the cheap.
  - edoceo 12y ago
    I've had a few (1/10) recruiters help me get consulting gigs. I prefer to pull my own however. You are better at selling yourself to the right gig than any recruiter could be.

paf31 12y ago

> With minor advertising and effort, I have more inbound work requests than I can personally take on. I'm very much interested in moving more towards contract-based employment, so I would love to hear more about the mechanics of getting off the ground, and any recommendations for advertising my services etc.

mvid 12y ago
I might write a new post about getting started, but essentially I just strung up a portfolio website on strikingly.com and a google apps account. FigBug is right, most of your work will end up coming through people you know, you can augment that by hitting up meetup groups and hackerspaces.
theandrewbailey 12y ago
I just watched a webinar about freelancing. Although it's not specifically about getting off the ground, it is touched on a bit. http://doubleyourfreelancingrate.com/w/clientsfromhell.html http://doubleyourfreelancingrate.com/w/clientsfromhell.html You should get a link to the recorded webinar when you sign up.
FigBug 12y ago
I've been a contractor since 2010. I've never had any problem finding work. I have received 1 job through my website, everything else has been through contacts. Before contracting I had 10 years as an employee of various companies. I think it is much harder to do contracting with less than about 5 years experience, you just won't have the contacts. There is no trick to what I do, whenever I run into an old colleague, I tell them I'm contracting now. They will either have or know somebody looking for my skills. I've even gone back to companies I worked as an employee and helped them during crunch time. I think when you are employed full time, people are reluctant to make you offers, but as soon as you are a available the offers seem to appear.
acconrad 12y ago
Try the HN freelancer posts every month, just respond to requests that fit your skill set, compete on price and over-deliver.
maxmzd_ 12y ago
AngelList is a great resource. Fill out your profile, connect with people you know, and list yourself as a contractor. Then go through jobs looking for contractors and hit "Yes." This is how I've found 90% of my contract work over the past 3 years (in the Bay Area).

greenyoda 12y ago

The linked article by David Brady, "Loyalty and Layoffs", is also a good read: http://heartmindcode.com/2013/08/16/loyalty-and-layoffs/ http://heartmindcode.com/2013/08/16/loyalty-and-layoffs/ Brady's article was also posted to HN 10 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6240495 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6240495

mvid 12y ago
If you are going to read one article, it should be David's. It's the article I used to send around when people asked me this question.

Joeboy 12y ago

For now, I don't want to be a full time employee because the capitalists reward me well for forgoing the security and rights I would have as an employee. I am nevertheless concerned that casualisation of labour is not a healthy trend for society overall.

canterburry 12y ago

I consulted for around 7 years as an independent and my feelings align pretty much 100% with those of the author. People are disposable resources on par with other equipment and machinery in today's business world. Getting paid anything less than full market value (including cost of benefits and a premium for being disposable) just doesn't make sense. The only company I work for is Me Inc. However, after attaining pretty much the highest level I could as a consultant (i.e. running teams of employees who reported to me) I hit a ceiling. I found myself at a level within the company from which I could never advance if I didn't become an employee. I stayed at this level for several years and decided it was limiting my growth as an individual. So, I've been working as an employee for the last 4 years with mixed emotion. My sentiment remains the same but at least I have advanced far enough now that my compensation is on par with when I was a consultant. Dream of going independent again every day though.

mvid 12y ago
I can see this being an issue the longer you work as a consultant. My intention was to eventually shift into self built products that bring in continuous income, or found a venture backed startup. I think that is the general sentiment of most consultants in the bay area.
- canterburry 12y ago
  Yes, that's what I do at night these days.
smallegan 12y ago
The trick to getting around this cap is to be running teams of your own employees.
- canterburry 12y ago
  As a product company, any day! As a consultancy, never. Going on vacation as a consultant makes you acutely aware of how consulting revenue scales like crap. I've literally had 2 week vacations which cost me $20K+ ($5K in travel and $15K in lost revenue). I'd frequently joke with my wife that she should really enjoy sipping that $100 bottle of beer on the beach.

zerr 12y ago

Because "full time" most likely means 40+ hours per week.

rcvassallo 12y ago

I've recently made the decision to go full-time consulting after a year of balancing contract work on the side with full-time employment. In my experience one of the biggest reason to avoid being a full-time employee is the difficulty in climbing the value chain. As a consultant, I'm a trusted advisor that helps my client bring their business to the next level. As an employee, I'm just maintaining the ship. I'm sure you can guess which one brings in more money :)

qwerta 12y ago

Perhaps we should define what is full-time employee. I am consultant, but I have only single customer/employer who reimburses my expenses without much questions. And I make similar money compared to my old corporate 9-5 job, adjusted for taxes, insurance and holiday. I think after you hit certain level of specialization, being self-employed is the only option.

atwebb 12y ago
Careful spouting that off (if you're US based), it sounds like, though you're both ok with it, your employer could be liable for incorrectly classifying you as an independent contractor. You may have been aware already but if not I'd take a look at it if you're in the US. EDIT: Checked the link in your profile, just leaving my comment so US folks are aware.
- qwerta 12y ago
  I live in Europe and my client is American company. That is pretty much only possible arrangement since they have no presence here. Also being employee would mean to give-up my copyright, which I am not that keen to do.

Ryel 12y ago

How do you handle contracts? Assuming each client has their own terms, and you have your own... Have you found any tricks to reaching a quick agreement that maintains your freedom?

mvid 12y ago
In general, most clients use a template contract. An accountant and a lawyer are going to be required if you become serious about consulting.
rcvassallo 12y ago
In my experience, this is something you can learn as you go. To get my first major gig started, a 1-page proposal that outlined how my services would help the client fulfill their goals was enough. A formal contract came later and we have been working together for a year now. In fact, the client was asking "Where do I sign?" before I even mentioned the formal proposal. What I learned was that the right clients care about their results and whether you can get them there first and foremost. Pricing and contracts are afterthoughts.