3 ms·

Yeah, Penn & Teller started out debunking psychics and so on -- then they decided gun control and recycling are bullshit too. I think one needs to be very care

Yeah, Penn & Teller started out debunking psychics and so on -- then they decided gun control and recycling are bullshit too. I think one needs to be very careful about this business of "cutting through the bullshit" or whatever. It's easy to turn it into a self-righteous way of talking about whatever you disagree with. You're not just disagreeing, you're scoring a victory for the truth in a world full of crap, etc., etc. Also, it does nothing to analyze why certain social fictions are propagated and continue to function even if no one believes in them. You can just content yourself with thinking everyone is full of shit and stop thinking there.

wavefunction 12y ago
I'm interested in their conclusions that gun-control and recycling are bullshit. Was this a political thing for them, that they don't support these behaviors politically and so concluded after "examining" the resulting effects that behaving in this way (controlling guns or recycling) don't have the claimed effects?
- badman_ting 12y ago
  Yes, basically. It's ok to call the woo-woo stuff bullshit, I don't care about alien abductions and crystals. But to take that and then apply it to gun control and so-called "environmental hysteria" (their phrase) is no good, I say. I mean, shit, they called the episode "environmental hysteria" and they pulled the old "dihydrogen monoxide" thing. In so many words: We found some dumb people that care about the environment, therefore if you care about the environment you're dumb.
- jiggy2011 12y ago
  I haven't watched the show in a long time (is it still on air?) but based on what I remember a rhetorical technique used was to cherry pick who they used as experts to advance different sides of the argument. If I remember rightly they did something on environmentalism where they mostly interviewed unwashed hippies rather than environmental scientists.
- mistermann 12y ago
  My anecdotal understanding of recycling is that something like 90% (????) of waste is industrial, so any consumer efforts to recycle are largely futile in the big scheme of things (not sure if that was their angle, also not sure how much truth there is to it). I'm of the opinion that most strong advocates of recycling also aren't aware of these numbers, and more importantly, don't care, but maybe I'm wrong on that (but I doubt it from most of the conversations I've had).
  - furyg3 12y ago
    If the problem is caused by a culture of consumerism and economic efficiency, do you expect to fix it with a focus on efficiency or cultural change? Educational and stimulative efforts (through fines or rewards) have been successful in the sense that most people generally agree that being less wasteful and trying to recycle is a good idea, and know/feel that they could do more. This culture seeps into meetings, boardrooms, and annual reports, as well as laws, courts, and policing.
  - Swizec 12y ago
    I've always argued Amdahl's law when people tell me I should recycle. When that doesn't work, I start talking about job creation. Yes, it's a disgusting job. But I imagine for the growing unemployed population back home in Europe that's still better than starvation. Furthermore, I really really don't have room for three to four different garbage cans in my tiny apartment.
- falcolas 12y ago
  Recycling - because most popular recycling (plastics in particular) was propped up by government subsidies, not viable businesses on their own. Plus, the energy savings (again, for plastic recycling) were nonexistent. Gun Control - I don't remember the arguments there, other than specifically arguing against most popular arguments against the second amendment.
- parasubvert 12y ago
  Penn Jillette is a vocal Libertarian (leaning anarcho-capitalist), and fellow at the Cato Institute. So yes, I'd say it is a political thing for them. That said, their approach to these topics tends to be one of the more tolerable I've seen, as they actually have a sense of humour, unlike most ideologues.
- bradleysmith 12y ago
  guns: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVzOV1EeeHw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVzOV1EeeHw recycling: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rExEVZlQia4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rExEVZlQia4
rail2rail 12y ago
Don't forget one of my favorite Bullshit episodes: Lawns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx9jKv6pgP8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx9jKv6pgP8 (nsfw)

wavefunction 12y ago

I'm interested in their conclusions that gun-control and recycling are bullshit. Was this a political thing for them, that they don't support these behaviors politically and so concluded after "examining" the resulting effects that behaving in this way (controlling guns or recycling) don't have the claimed effects?

badman_ting 12y ago
Yes, basically. It's ok to call the woo-woo stuff bullshit, I don't care about alien abductions and crystals. But to take that and then apply it to gun control and so-called "environmental hysteria" (their phrase) is no good, I say. I mean, shit, they called the episode "environmental hysteria" and they pulled the old "dihydrogen monoxide" thing. In so many words: We found some dumb people that care about the environment, therefore if you care about the environment you're dumb.
jiggy2011 12y ago
I haven't watched the show in a long time (is it still on air?) but based on what I remember a rhetorical technique used was to cherry pick who they used as experts to advance different sides of the argument. If I remember rightly they did something on environmentalism where they mostly interviewed unwashed hippies rather than environmental scientists.
mistermann 12y ago
My anecdotal understanding of recycling is that something like 90% (????) of waste is industrial, so any consumer efforts to recycle are largely futile in the big scheme of things (not sure if that was their angle, also not sure how much truth there is to it). I'm of the opinion that most strong advocates of recycling also aren't aware of these numbers, and more importantly, don't care, but maybe I'm wrong on that (but I doubt it from most of the conversations I've had).
- furyg3 12y ago
  If the problem is caused by a culture of consumerism and economic efficiency, do you expect to fix it with a focus on efficiency or cultural change? Educational and stimulative efforts (through fines or rewards) have been successful in the sense that most people generally agree that being less wasteful and trying to recycle is a good idea, and know/feel that they could do more. This culture seeps into meetings, boardrooms, and annual reports, as well as laws, courts, and policing.
- Swizec 12y ago
  I've always argued Amdahl's law when people tell me I should recycle. When that doesn't work, I start talking about job creation. Yes, it's a disgusting job. But I imagine for the growing unemployed population back home in Europe that's still better than starvation. Furthermore, I really really don't have room for three to four different garbage cans in my tiny apartment.
falcolas 12y ago
Recycling - because most popular recycling (plastics in particular) was propped up by government subsidies, not viable businesses on their own. Plus, the energy savings (again, for plastic recycling) were nonexistent. Gun Control - I don't remember the arguments there, other than specifically arguing against most popular arguments against the second amendment.
parasubvert 12y ago
Penn Jillette is a vocal Libertarian (leaning anarcho-capitalist), and fellow at the Cato Institute. So yes, I'd say it is a political thing for them. That said, their approach to these topics tends to be one of the more tolerable I've seen, as they actually have a sense of humour, unlike most ideologues.
bradleysmith 12y ago
guns: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVzOV1EeeHw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVzOV1EeeHw recycling: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rExEVZlQia4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rExEVZlQia4

rail2rail 12y ago

Don't forget one of my favorite Bullshit episodes: Lawns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx9jKv6pgP8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx9jKv6pgP8 (nsfw)