6 ms·

Ki – A lisp for your JavaScript

119 points by threepointone 12y ago

fdsary 12y ago
Woow! This is really fucking cool! Thanks for sharing.
- lantiga 12y ago
  Glad you find it interesting, looking forward to future feedback.
oweiler 12y ago
Why would I want to use this in preference to ClojureScript?
- sunkencity 12y ago
  because the jvm is a pain?
  - jhh 12y ago
    ClojureScript is not executed on the JVM.
    - adambard 12y ago
      But it does have a fairly tight integration with clojure, and also uses the JVM-based closure compiler. However, I'd way rather see a clojurescript runtime for v8 than another language "inspired by" clojurescript.
      - vmind 12y ago
        Do you mean a ClojureScript compiler compiled to JavaScript? ClojureScript can be compiled and run in v8 just fine right now.
        integraton 12y ago
        How do you compile clojurescript without the JVM?
        leishulang 12y ago
        https://github.com/Bronsa/CinC https://github.com/Bronsa/CinC when this is done. Some people are working hard on it.
        SkyMarshal 12y ago
        I think he means ClojureScript completely divorced from the JVM, so you don't need a Java infrastructure to develop/compile ClojureScript.
      - chc 12y ago
        V8 already is a ClojureScript runtime, isn't it?
- weavie 12y ago
  I'm guessing, since this is a set of sweet.js macros you could mix Ki and Javascript code in the same file. So you could only use the lisp bits when you really needed to.
  - lantiga 12y ago
    [Hi, author here] Yes, that is basically the idea. ki functions are js functions, same goes for vars, which makes it easy to jump from js to ki and back, without giving up on immutability, etc. Note that ki is not really intended as a ClojureScript alternative at all. It's more a way to take advantage of its data structures and some of its expressiveness from a pure JS ecosystem.
VMG 12y ago
See also: https://github.com/Gozala/wisp https://github.com/Gozala/wisp
- agumonkey 12y ago
  For a second I thought wisp was http://will.thimbleby.net/misc/ http://will.thimbleby.net/misc/ but nope.
- leishulang 12y ago
  wisp is a fork of lispyscript but more clojure oriented .
jeletonskelly 12y ago
As a clojure developer that sometimes crosses the line into the front-end world, this is going to make my life much easier.
- afandian 12y ago
  Why does this make your life easier than clojurescript?
  - sunkencity 12y ago
    not everybody likes the jvm ecosystem.
    - flixic 12y ago
      Clojurescript compiles to Javascript, it does not run on JVM; Clojure does.
      - douchescript 12y ago
        So the compiler and toolchain in javascript then? News to me.
    - afandian 12y ago
      If the person I replied do doesn't like the JVM why are they writing Clojure in the first place?
      - sunkencity 12y ago
        I've programmed lots of clojure. But in the end, I am too annoyed by the jvm ecosystem, the good that is clojure doesn't weight up the java crap, so while I love the language, I cannot stand the environment.
        afandian 12y ago
        I'm interested to hear about your experience. What do you find annoying about the JVM? That notwithstanding, I wasn't asking about yours, I was replying to jeletonskelly's, which seems to be different to yours.
lsdafjklsd 12y ago
Trying to find ways to integrate react / om / clojurescript into my Ember app and this is perfect. Thank you!
roryokane 12y ago
See also LispyScript (http://lispyscript.com/ http://lispyscript.com/), “a JavaScript with Lispy syntax and macros”. Like Ki, it requires inclusion of a standard library. Unlike Ki, it does not provide alternative data structures in addition to native JS values; it only uses native JS values. LispyScript also does not support embedded JavaScript or being embedded within JavaScript. But LispyScript currently has better docs, including a page to try it in the browser (http://lispyscript.com/tryit/ http://lispyscript.com/tryit/).
- lantiga 12y ago
  I agree, LispyScript is very neat, closer to a full-fledged language than ki. On the other hand, ki is focused on ClojureScript's immutable data structures and related idioms - in fact it's just a thin layer around those.
  - zachrose 12y ago
    Can anyone enlighten me to the difference between Clojure-like immutability and Object.freeze()?
    - lantiga 12y ago
      The main difference is structural sharing: I can update a Clojure map with a new value, which will create another map that shares the vast majority of the data with the former map. With plain JavaScript, you'd have to clone your object, update it and freeze it again. In addition Clojure/ClojureScript/mori offer a whole API designed to leverage immutable data structures.
- evacchi 12y ago
  also JavathScript http://kybernetikos.github.io/Javathcript/ http://kybernetikos.github.io/Javathcript/
leishulang 12y ago
The only reason I use clojurescript over other js lisps is core.async. What is Ki's take on this?
- lantiga 12y ago
  I have ideas around providing CSP in ki, but so far I haven't implemented them. All there is in ki right now is the (letc ...) form (see http://ki-lang.org/api.html#misc http://ki-lang.org/api.html#misc), which provides very similar functionality to LiveScript's backcalls. It is no CSP but it allows to straighten up nested async calls.
j_s 12y ago
I'd appreciate any opinions on how usable something like this or ClojureScript is to transition to in an enterprise / team environment. How can I sell that switch to my employer and co-workers?
- klibertp 12y ago
  You can't. Forget it. I mean, there is a whole long list of benefits of functional programming, immutable/persistent data structures, macros and so on. But Lisps and functional oriented languages (like Roy, LiveScript) are also unfamiliar, not supported in your favourite IDE, make you think in a way you're not accustomed to and eat your kittens for lunch. You have a chance with ClojureScript if the backend is in Clojure - other than this there is just no way to introduce something like this. As for usability, ClojureScript works very, very well. Async is well implemented (if you like CPS model), JS scoping is fixed and so on. LiveScript is also quite usable, although it lacks source map implementation for now. Backcalls make async nice but stay close to JS, currying and partials are nice, easy object cloning makes up for inherent mutability. For my personal projects I use LS instead of JS or Coffee exclusively now. But they are completely unusable in enterprise environment. And probably won't ever be. It would also be very hard to find a team which would like to adopt them without knowing them beforehand (rightly so, IMHO, because transitioning to another paradigm - and benefiting from it - is not a trivial matter) and about as hard (or harder) to find a team where they are known already. Your best bet is probably to contribute to LightTable a lot and seek a job in Clojure oriented start-up if you want to use ClojureScript at work.
timwaagh 12y ago
like this. im not sure how much an improvement this is over for example underscore (i guess i'll find out), but at least i can finally -kinda- say i write bloody LISP when i put this in my code :P
hajile 12y ago
There is already a ki lisp (a smaller subset of Qi lisp) that is the foundation of shen lisp. http://www.shenlanguage.org/learn-shen/shendoc.htm#KI http://www.shenlanguage.org/learn-shen/shendoc.htm#KI
- lantiga 12y ago
  It's actually named KL (with a lower-case L), but yes, that was close.
  - eggy 12y ago
    What's the difference? I mean, Shen is ported to JS, and doesn't require Node. Can it play with JS like KL? Shen is pretty cool with a built-in, functional Prolog too, and static typing you can turn on or off.
    - lantiga 12y ago
      Shen is pretty amazing, it's a full fledged functional language with lots of features and lots of compilation backends. I don't think there's a lot of ground for a comparison with ki, which is much more limited in scope.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

119 points by threepointone 12y ago

fdsary 12y ago

Woow! This is really fucking cool! Thanks for sharing.

lantiga 12y ago
Glad you find it interesting, looking forward to future feedback.

oweiler 12y ago

Why would I want to use this in preference to ClojureScript?

sunkencity 12y ago
because the jvm is a pain?
- jhh 12y ago
  ClojureScript is not executed on the JVM.
  - adambard 12y ago
    But it does have a fairly tight integration with clojure, and also uses the JVM-based closure compiler. However, I'd way rather see a clojurescript runtime for v8 than another language "inspired by" clojurescript.
    - vmind 12y ago
      Do you mean a ClojureScript compiler compiled to JavaScript? ClojureScript can be compiled and run in v8 just fine right now.
      - integraton 12y ago
        How do you compile clojurescript without the JVM?
      - leishulang 12y ago
        https://github.com/Bronsa/CinC https://github.com/Bronsa/CinC when this is done. Some people are working hard on it.
      - SkyMarshal 12y ago
        I think he means ClojureScript completely divorced from the JVM, so you don't need a Java infrastructure to develop/compile ClojureScript.
    - chc 12y ago
      V8 already is a ClojureScript runtime, isn't it?
weavie 12y ago
I'm guessing, since this is a set of sweet.js macros you could mix Ki and Javascript code in the same file. So you could only use the lisp bits when you really needed to.
- lantiga 12y ago
  [Hi, author here] Yes, that is basically the idea. ki functions are js functions, same goes for vars, which makes it easy to jump from js to ki and back, without giving up on immutability, etc. Note that ki is not really intended as a ClojureScript alternative at all. It's more a way to take advantage of its data structures and some of its expressiveness from a pure JS ecosystem.

VMG 12y ago

See also: https://github.com/Gozala/wisp https://github.com/Gozala/wisp

agumonkey 12y ago
For a second I thought wisp was http://will.thimbleby.net/misc/ http://will.thimbleby.net/misc/ but nope.
leishulang 12y ago
wisp is a fork of lispyscript but more clojure oriented .

jeletonskelly 12y ago

As a clojure developer that sometimes crosses the line into the front-end world, this is going to make my life much easier.

afandian 12y ago
Why does this make your life easier than clojurescript?
- sunkencity 12y ago
  not everybody likes the jvm ecosystem.
  - flixic 12y ago
    Clojurescript compiles to Javascript, it does not run on JVM; Clojure does.
    - douchescript 12y ago
      So the compiler and toolchain in javascript then? News to me.
  - afandian 12y ago
    If the person I replied do doesn't like the JVM why are they writing Clojure in the first place?
    - sunkencity 12y ago
      I've programmed lots of clojure. But in the end, I am too annoyed by the jvm ecosystem, the good that is clojure doesn't weight up the java crap, so while I love the language, I cannot stand the environment.
      - afandian 12y ago
        I'm interested to hear about your experience. What do you find annoying about the JVM? That notwithstanding, I wasn't asking about yours, I was replying to jeletonskelly's, which seems to be different to yours.

lsdafjklsd 12y ago

Trying to find ways to integrate react / om / clojurescript into my Ember app and this is perfect. Thank you!

roryokane 12y ago

See also LispyScript (http://lispyscript.com/ http://lispyscript.com/), “a JavaScript with Lispy syntax and macros”. Like Ki, it requires inclusion of a standard library. Unlike Ki, it does not provide alternative data structures in addition to native JS values; it only uses native JS values. LispyScript also does not support embedded JavaScript or being embedded within JavaScript. But LispyScript currently has better docs, including a page to try it in the browser (http://lispyscript.com/tryit/ http://lispyscript.com/tryit/).

lantiga 12y ago
I agree, LispyScript is very neat, closer to a full-fledged language than ki. On the other hand, ki is focused on ClojureScript's immutable data structures and related idioms - in fact it's just a thin layer around those.
- zachrose 12y ago
  Can anyone enlighten me to the difference between Clojure-like immutability and Object.freeze()?
  - lantiga 12y ago
    The main difference is structural sharing: I can update a Clojure map with a new value, which will create another map that shares the vast majority of the data with the former map. With plain JavaScript, you'd have to clone your object, update it and freeze it again. In addition Clojure/ClojureScript/mori offer a whole API designed to leverage immutable data structures.
evacchi 12y ago
also JavathScript http://kybernetikos.github.io/Javathcript/ http://kybernetikos.github.io/Javathcript/

leishulang 12y ago

The only reason I use clojurescript over other js lisps is core.async. What is Ki's take on this?

lantiga 12y ago
I have ideas around providing CSP in ki, but so far I haven't implemented them. All there is in ki right now is the (letc ...) form (see http://ki-lang.org/api.html#misc http://ki-lang.org/api.html#misc), which provides very similar functionality to LiveScript's backcalls. It is no CSP but it allows to straighten up nested async calls.

j_s 12y ago

I'd appreciate any opinions on how usable something like this or ClojureScript is to transition to in an enterprise / team environment. How can I sell that switch to my employer and co-workers?

klibertp 12y ago
You can't. Forget it. I mean, there is a whole long list of benefits of functional programming, immutable/persistent data structures, macros and so on. But Lisps and functional oriented languages (like Roy, LiveScript) are also unfamiliar, not supported in your favourite IDE, make you think in a way you're not accustomed to and eat your kittens for lunch. You have a chance with ClojureScript if the backend is in Clojure - other than this there is just no way to introduce something like this. As for usability, ClojureScript works very, very well. Async is well implemented (if you like CPS model), JS scoping is fixed and so on. LiveScript is also quite usable, although it lacks source map implementation for now. Backcalls make async nice but stay close to JS, currying and partials are nice, easy object cloning makes up for inherent mutability. For my personal projects I use LS instead of JS or Coffee exclusively now. But they are completely unusable in enterprise environment. And probably won't ever be. It would also be very hard to find a team which would like to adopt them without knowing them beforehand (rightly so, IMHO, because transitioning to another paradigm - and benefiting from it - is not a trivial matter) and about as hard (or harder) to find a team where they are known already. Your best bet is probably to contribute to LightTable a lot and seek a job in Clojure oriented start-up if you want to use ClojureScript at work.

timwaagh 12y ago

like this. im not sure how much an improvement this is over for example underscore (i guess i'll find out), but at least i can finally -kinda- say i write bloody LISP when i put this in my code :P

hajile 12y ago

There is already a ki lisp (a smaller subset of Qi lisp) that is the foundation of shen lisp. http://www.shenlanguage.org/learn-shen/shendoc.htm#KI http://www.shenlanguage.org/learn-shen/shendoc.htm#KI

lantiga 12y ago
It's actually named KL (with a lower-case L), but yes, that was close.
- eggy 12y ago
  What's the difference? I mean, Shen is ported to JS, and doesn't require Node. Can it play with JS like KL? Shen is pretty cool with a built-in, functional Prolog too, and static typing you can turn on or off.
  - lantiga 12y ago
    Shen is pretty amazing, it's a full fledged functional language with lots of features and lots of compilation backends. I don't think there's a lot of ground for a comparison with ki, which is much more limited in scope.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]