6 ms·

I've calculated free education, it would basically collapse our government's finances. A College education is nice, but is not the sole step to ending to our ec

by zghst 12y ago

I've calculated free education, it would basically collapse our government's finances. A College education is nice, but is not the sole step to ending to our economic and societal problems.

claudius 12y ago
If I understood the article correctly, a BSc costs $60k in tuition for an online course. I believe this to not cover required textbooks etc., which are likely more difficult to find in a library if you’re on the other side of the country. In comparison, my BSc at TU Berlin cost me 6 * 240 €, which includes free access to Berlin’s public transport system. And while the financial state of Berlin is certainly far from perfect, I wouldn’t call it ‘collapsed’ (oh, and I get the impression that a college education in the US is more like a high school degree in Germany and not directly comparable to a proper university degree…any comments/similar observations?)
- tptacek 12y ago
  How about, instead of begging for what will be probably the most pointless debate on HN this whole week with innuendo, you put in a show of good faith with that question and find a credible source that suggests that a German high school diploma is equivalent to an American college degree? Perhaps after you do that, it'll be a good idea for anyone to dignify that question.
  - claudius 12y ago
    Sure. Look at https://webapp4.asu.edu/programs/t5/roadmaps/ASU00/LAPHYBA/null/ALL/2014 https://webapp4.asu.edu/programs/t5/roadmaps/ASU00/LAPHYBA/n... for the physics degree at Arizona state. It doesn’t seem to have a bachelor thesis or comparable work, it has about 50% stuff which has nothing whatsoever to do with physics (e.g. “Humanities, Fine Arts and Design (HU) AND Historical Awareness (H)”) and its physics courses seem end with things like “PHY 302: Mathematical Methods in Physics II“, which contains “complex variables”, “PHY 311: Classical Particles, Fields, and Matter II“, with “Faraday’s Law” and just a single QM course “PHY 314: Quantum Physics I” which only mentions wave mechanics, but makes no mention of perturbation theory, matrix mechanics or the standard Hilbert space approach with Dirac notation. Especially the 50%-or-so of liberal arts, historical awareness etc. seem to be more appropriately placed in a high school degree than in a college degree, and things like complex variables shouldn’t require introduction in term five either.
    - UK-AL 12y ago
      American Degrees are meant to more general than a specific subject. You should do a certain amount credit in other subjects, before they let you pass.
    - ntaso 12y ago
      The system in the US is different. You can get credits in various topics despite being enrolled in, say, Physics. In Germany, you're enrolled in one subject and have mostly predefined classes for that subject until you have something like a pre-diploma. This doesn't tell you anything about the depth of a class. I studied for a year at ASU (computer science) and found there's not much difference between low-level courses and pre-diploma courses in Germany. A master's dregree in the US is more or less comparable to a diploma. Also: Do you compare the former 13 years of school in Germany or the new 12-year period of school with the American education system?
- doyoulikeworms 12y ago
  > (oh, and I get the impression that a college education in the US is more like a high school degree in Germany and not directly comparable to a proper university degree…any comments/similar observations?) Uh, wow?
  - TheCoelacanth 12y ago
    I don't think that's correct. A bachelor's in the US (eight semesters of study) is roughly equivalent to a bachelor's in Germany (six semesters of study) plus the final year of secondary school (which lasts one year longer in Germany).
- wyclif 12y ago
  I get the impression that a college education in the US is more like a high school degree in Germany You got the wrong impression. Not a little wrong. A lot wrong. The US has many top-flight schools. And I'm not talking about the Ivies, either. I'm talking about small schools that excel by every authentic educational metric (student-teacher ratio, research excellence, undergrads who go on to graduate work and PhDs, etc).
gambiting 12y ago
My country - Poland - has completely free education, on every level - primary, middle,high school and every university are free. There are private ones which are paid but they are not very good and a degree from any of them is not worth much. And yet despite free education(and free healthcare for everyone) we managed to be the ONLY country in the entire European Union to not enter into recession - while every other country was going into negative numbers,we managed to maintain positive growth. So, if free education in the US would collapse your finances, then there is something seriously wrong with either the cost of the education(which is seriously inflated and disproportionate for what it's offering) or your government has wrong spending priorities.
- lifeisstillgood 12y ago
  I am considering creating puppet accounts just to upvote you more ;-)
- xerophtye 12y ago
  Does the free education thing apply to international students? I know some EU countries only have that for locals and some (like norway) extend that privilege for international students. So where does Poland classify? Not criticizing, just curious.
  - tim333 12y ago
    Apparently the free education thing applies sometimes: http://iso.uni.lodz.pl/study-in-english/terms-of-studying-in-poland http://iso.uni.lodz.pl/study-in-english/terms-of-studying-in...
    - xerophtye 12y ago
      Hmm... only EU residents (even if foreign to Poland)
- smm2000 12y ago
  To be fair, Poland is at a pretty low base - it's at less than half of Germany GDP per person. I would not be surprised if some companies moved work to Poland to save on labour instead of moving to China/Asia as most cost-cutting companies did in US.
dan_bk 12y ago
> it would basically collapse our government's finances My guess is, the comparatively extremely high military budget [0] is the actual culprit. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_...
NAFV_P 12y ago
> I've calculated free education, it would basically collapse our government's finances. Free, useless education is costly, but in the long run, useful education works to the benefit of governments.
justizin 12y ago
Putting aside entirely the fact that the cost of education in the US is rising at an unhealthy rate, and has been for some time, largely due to profit-driven education, about half of our national budget goes to wars. THAT is what is collapsing our government's finances. Sending young people off to die, largely protecting corporate interests, and when they return not only can they not afford education, but they have a 1+ year waiting list for basic health care.

by zghst 12y ago

I've calculated free education, it would basically collapse our government's finances. A College education is nice, but is not the sole step to ending to our economic and societal problems.

claudius 12y ago

If I understood the article correctly, a BSc costs $60k in tuition for an online course. I believe this to not cover required textbooks etc., which are likely more difficult to find in a library if you’re on the other side of the country. In comparison, my BSc at TU Berlin cost me 6 * 240 €, which includes free access to Berlin’s public transport system. And while the financial state of Berlin is certainly far from perfect, I wouldn’t call it ‘collapsed’ (oh, and I get the impression that a college education in the US is more like a high school degree in Germany and not directly comparable to a proper university degree…any comments/similar observations?)

tptacek 12y ago
How about, instead of begging for what will be probably the most pointless debate on HN this whole week with innuendo, you put in a show of good faith with that question and find a credible source that suggests that a German high school diploma is equivalent to an American college degree? Perhaps after you do that, it'll be a good idea for anyone to dignify that question.
- claudius 12y ago
  Sure. Look at https://webapp4.asu.edu/programs/t5/roadmaps/ASU00/LAPHYBA/null/ALL/2014 https://webapp4.asu.edu/programs/t5/roadmaps/ASU00/LAPHYBA/n... for the physics degree at Arizona state. It doesn’t seem to have a bachelor thesis or comparable work, it has about 50% stuff which has nothing whatsoever to do with physics (e.g. “Humanities, Fine Arts and Design (HU) AND Historical Awareness (H)”) and its physics courses seem end with things like “PHY 302: Mathematical Methods in Physics II“, which contains “complex variables”, “PHY 311: Classical Particles, Fields, and Matter II“, with “Faraday’s Law” and just a single QM course “PHY 314: Quantum Physics I” which only mentions wave mechanics, but makes no mention of perturbation theory, matrix mechanics or the standard Hilbert space approach with Dirac notation. Especially the 50%-or-so of liberal arts, historical awareness etc. seem to be more appropriately placed in a high school degree than in a college degree, and things like complex variables shouldn’t require introduction in term five either.
  - UK-AL 12y ago
    American Degrees are meant to more general than a specific subject. You should do a certain amount credit in other subjects, before they let you pass.
  - ntaso 12y ago
    The system in the US is different. You can get credits in various topics despite being enrolled in, say, Physics. In Germany, you're enrolled in one subject and have mostly predefined classes for that subject until you have something like a pre-diploma. This doesn't tell you anything about the depth of a class. I studied for a year at ASU (computer science) and found there's not much difference between low-level courses and pre-diploma courses in Germany. A master's dregree in the US is more or less comparable to a diploma. Also: Do you compare the former 13 years of school in Germany or the new 12-year period of school with the American education system?
doyoulikeworms 12y ago
> (oh, and I get the impression that a college education in the US is more like a high school degree in Germany and not directly comparable to a proper university degree…any comments/similar observations?) Uh, wow?
- TheCoelacanth 12y ago
  I don't think that's correct. A bachelor's in the US (eight semesters of study) is roughly equivalent to a bachelor's in Germany (six semesters of study) plus the final year of secondary school (which lasts one year longer in Germany).
wyclif 12y ago
I get the impression that a college education in the US is more like a high school degree in Germany You got the wrong impression. Not a little wrong. A lot wrong. The US has many top-flight schools. And I'm not talking about the Ivies, either. I'm talking about small schools that excel by every authentic educational metric (student-teacher ratio, research excellence, undergrads who go on to graduate work and PhDs, etc).

gambiting 12y ago

My country - Poland - has completely free education, on every level - primary, middle,high school and every university are free. There are private ones which are paid but they are not very good and a degree from any of them is not worth much. And yet despite free education(and free healthcare for everyone) we managed to be the ONLY country in the entire European Union to not enter into recession - while every other country was going into negative numbers,we managed to maintain positive growth. So, if free education in the US would collapse your finances, then there is something seriously wrong with either the cost of the education(which is seriously inflated and disproportionate for what it's offering) or your government has wrong spending priorities.

lifeisstillgood 12y ago
I am considering creating puppet accounts just to upvote you more ;-)
xerophtye 12y ago
Does the free education thing apply to international students? I know some EU countries only have that for locals and some (like norway) extend that privilege for international students. So where does Poland classify? Not criticizing, just curious.
- tim333 12y ago
  Apparently the free education thing applies sometimes: http://iso.uni.lodz.pl/study-in-english/terms-of-studying-in-poland http://iso.uni.lodz.pl/study-in-english/terms-of-studying-in...
  - xerophtye 12y ago
    Hmm... only EU residents (even if foreign to Poland)
smm2000 12y ago
To be fair, Poland is at a pretty low base - it's at less than half of Germany GDP per person. I would not be surprised if some companies moved work to Poland to save on labour instead of moving to China/Asia as most cost-cutting companies did in US.

dan_bk 12y ago

> it would basically collapse our government's finances My guess is, the comparatively extremely high military budget [0] is the actual culprit. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_...

NAFV_P 12y ago

> I've calculated free education, it would basically collapse our government's finances. Free, useless education is costly, but in the long run, useful education works to the benefit of governments.

justizin 12y ago

Putting aside entirely the fact that the cost of education in the US is rising at an unhealthy rate, and has been for some time, largely due to profit-driven education, about half of our national budget goes to wars. THAT is what is collapsing our government's finances. Sending young people off to die, largely protecting corporate interests, and when they return not only can they not afford education, but they have a 1+ year waiting list for basic health care.