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> Not stupid, but brainwashed perhaps. > ... End of story. End of story indeed. I'm obviously too "brainwashed" to have anything of value to say. But I would

by Pitarou 12y ago

> Not stupid, but brainwashed perhaps. > ... End of story. End of story indeed. I'm obviously too "brainwashed" to have anything of value to say. But I would like to point out that I never said government debt was the cause of Japan's economic stagnation.

crdoconnor 12y ago
>I'm obviously too "brainwashed" to have anything of value to say. That depends. Do you still think that hyperinflation is even a remote possibility in Japan? >But I would like to point out that I never said government debt was the cause of Japan's economic stagnation. Nope, you didn't, but austerianism IS still the default economic mode of thought these days amongst Japanese and western elites, and it is strongly linked to the belief in impending hyperinflation.
- ekianjo 12y ago
  > austerianism IS still the default economic mode of thought these days amongst Japanese and western elites, austerianism?? Where? Japan is overspending by large amounts every single year and I have yet to hear any Japanese politician (apart from Hashimoto) talking about making economies. Abe's program is all about spending to death.
  - crdoconnor 12y ago
    >austerianism?? Where? Japan is overspending by large amounts every single year Where is this opinion being held? Right ^^^ fucking ^^^ here. Where is it being implemented? Here: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-29/japan-s-government-proposes-first-spending-cut-in-seven-years.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-29/japan-s-government-... And the consumption tax hike. Many among the Japanese elites (not to mention American and European) feel the same way as you. Even among the neoconservatives they're somewhat schizophrenic about spending.
    - ekianjo 12y ago
      > Here: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-29/japan-s-government-.. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-29/japan-s-government-.... And the consumption tax hike. Haha. That's not austerianism. Austerity is when you cut down to the levels of spending you can afford. What Japan (and many other countries around the world) are calling "austerity" is just digging the hole a little less fast. But they are still actively digging the hole, year after year, producing more and more debt. Austerity is just an over-abused media buzzword to say you are cutting a small piece in your obese amount of spendings. Nothing to do with the actual meaning of the word. The tax hike will have nil effects on the fact that there are deep changes in Japan's structure to stop overspending, without mentioning the fact that increasing tax will bring diminishing revenues (and lower consumption) after a certain limit.
      - crdoconnor 12y ago
        >Haha. That's not austerianism. Austerity is when you cut down to the levels of spending you can afford. "In economics, austerity describes policies used by governments to reduce budget deficits during adverse economic conditions." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austerity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austerity The fact that you invented a new definition of austerity used only by you changes nothing. Japan has been practicing austerity for decades because many among the government erroneously believe (like you) that a government's capacity to borrow in a currency it prints is limited and will some day reach a limit.
        ekianjo 12y ago
        > The fact that you invented a new definition of austerity used only by you changes nothing. The fact that Economists invented a new definition to pass fake deficit cuts for real careful spending changes nothing. The actual definition of the word, man: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/austerity http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/austerity "a situation in which there is not much money and it is spent only on things that are necessary" Yeah, Japan spends ONLY on things that are necessary. Building dams, renovating administration buildings from scratch right after the 3.11 Earthquake is damn necessary. Seriously, buy a dictionary. They are cheap.
nona 12y ago
He may have used a lot of caps, but his points ring true: after two decades of deflation and low growth, I find it utterly surprising that people keep arguing for a certain, continued pain in the present, to stave off some potential future pain. Pretty much what Europe has been doing since 2009, by the way - maybe I don't see the full picture with my limited understanding of economics, but it kinda sounds crazy to me.
- Pitarou 12y ago
  I'm not actually arguing for much at all. (Note to crdoconner: if you really want to attack me, I'm wide open on that flank.) But I believe that the best way forwards starts with an honest acceptance of our situation now. And our situation is that a lot of chickens are coming home to roost. I think the deflation and low growth are structural problems. Japan can't really stomach the creative-destruction necessary for a capitalist economy to thrive, and so on. I'm sure you've heard it before. nl thinks that, if we can just hold it together for a bit longer, something will turn up. And maybe nl is right. Maybe, next week, someone will discover a wonderful new technology that will usher in 20 years of miraculous economic growth, and we'll all be saved. But I'm not counting on it.

by Pitarou 12y ago

crdoconnor 12y ago

>I'm obviously too "brainwashed" to have anything of value to say. That depends. Do you still think that hyperinflation is even a remote possibility in Japan? >But I would like to point out that I never said government debt was the cause of Japan's economic stagnation. Nope, you didn't, but austerianism IS still the default economic mode of thought these days amongst Japanese and western elites, and it is strongly linked to the belief in impending hyperinflation.

ekianjo 12y ago
> austerianism IS still the default economic mode of thought these days amongst Japanese and western elites, austerianism?? Where? Japan is overspending by large amounts every single year and I have yet to hear any Japanese politician (apart from Hashimoto) talking about making economies. Abe's program is all about spending to death.
- crdoconnor 12y ago
  >austerianism?? Where? Japan is overspending by large amounts every single year Where is this opinion being held? Right ^^^ fucking ^^^ here. Where is it being implemented? Here: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-29/japan-s-government-proposes-first-spending-cut-in-seven-years.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-29/japan-s-government-... And the consumption tax hike. Many among the Japanese elites (not to mention American and European) feel the same way as you. Even among the neoconservatives they're somewhat schizophrenic about spending.
  - ekianjo 12y ago
    > Here: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-29/japan-s-government-.. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-29/japan-s-government-.... And the consumption tax hike. Haha. That's not austerianism. Austerity is when you cut down to the levels of spending you can afford. What Japan (and many other countries around the world) are calling "austerity" is just digging the hole a little less fast. But they are still actively digging the hole, year after year, producing more and more debt. Austerity is just an over-abused media buzzword to say you are cutting a small piece in your obese amount of spendings. Nothing to do with the actual meaning of the word. The tax hike will have nil effects on the fact that there are deep changes in Japan's structure to stop overspending, without mentioning the fact that increasing tax will bring diminishing revenues (and lower consumption) after a certain limit.
    - crdoconnor 12y ago
      >Haha. That's not austerianism. Austerity is when you cut down to the levels of spending you can afford. "In economics, austerity describes policies used by governments to reduce budget deficits during adverse economic conditions." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austerity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austerity The fact that you invented a new definition of austerity used only by you changes nothing. Japan has been practicing austerity for decades because many among the government erroneously believe (like you) that a government's capacity to borrow in a currency it prints is limited and will some day reach a limit.
      - ekianjo 12y ago
        > The fact that you invented a new definition of austerity used only by you changes nothing. The fact that Economists invented a new definition to pass fake deficit cuts for real careful spending changes nothing. The actual definition of the word, man: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/austerity http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/austerity "a situation in which there is not much money and it is spent only on things that are necessary" Yeah, Japan spends ONLY on things that are necessary. Building dams, renovating administration buildings from scratch right after the 3.11 Earthquake is damn necessary. Seriously, buy a dictionary. They are cheap.

nona 12y ago

He may have used a lot of caps, but his points ring true: after two decades of deflation and low growth, I find it utterly surprising that people keep arguing for a certain, continued pain in the present, to stave off some potential future pain. Pretty much what Europe has been doing since 2009, by the way - maybe I don't see the full picture with my limited understanding of economics, but it kinda sounds crazy to me.

Pitarou 12y ago
I'm not actually arguing for much at all. (Note to crdoconner: if you really want to attack me, I'm wide open on that flank.) But I believe that the best way forwards starts with an honest acceptance of our situation now. And our situation is that a lot of chickens are coming home to roost. I think the deflation and low growth are structural problems. Japan can't really stomach the creative-destruction necessary for a capitalist economy to thrive, and so on. I'm sure you've heard it before. nl thinks that, if we can just hold it together for a bit longer, something will turn up. And maybe nl is right. Maybe, next week, someone will discover a wonderful new technology that will usher in 20 years of miraculous economic growth, and we'll all be saved. But I'm not counting on it.