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Can someone explain to me why 90% women graduating in healthcare is not considered a gender gap but 90% men graduating in compsci is? Why isn't anyone pushing

by ffn 12y ago

Can someone explain to me why 90% women graduating in healthcare is not considered a gender gap but 90% men graduating in compsci is? Why isn't anyone pushing to have more men go into K-12 education, nursing, etc.? And if you're considering the argument "because men tend to be less kind than women, and more likely to be child-molesters", do you also consider the argument "because women tend to want to interact more with other humans than computers" when asked why there are fewer women than men graduating compsci?

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
brighteyes 12y ago
For nursing, see this for example about efforts to get more men into the field http://www.minoritynurse.com/article/men-nursing http://www.minoritynurse.com/article/men-nursing > Despite efforts from nursing schools across the nation to recruit and retain more men and minorities, the results have been fairly modest.
whyenot 12y ago
> Why isn't anyone pushing to have more men go into K-12 education, nursing, etc.? Did you bother to look, or did you just assume this was the case? http://www.edutopia.org/male-teacher-shortage http://www.edutopia.org/male-teacher-shortage http://aamn.org/choosenursing.shtml http://aamn.org/choosenursing.shtml
- visualR 12y ago
  What I think the point was there is no outrage in the blogosphere/twitterverse about the shortage of male nurses.
  - gtremper 12y ago
    I think both issues are symptoms of the same underlying problem.
  - Macha 12y ago
    Are the blogs of IT people or of nurses more likely to be posted here? Which group is more likely to share their opinions of their work life online in the first people? I've certainly heard friends in nursing mention this to me in real life.
  - Fomite 12y ago
    The internet is a big place - it's pretty easy to find pieces on the shortage of male nurses, including peer reviewed papers and articles by professional organizations.
Fomite 12y ago
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, especially if you can't be bothered to look. For both teaching and nursing, there is an acute concern about the lack of men, as role models for boys in school, and in basically any healthcare profession besides "Doctor". It should be noted however that unlike the common experience of women in CS, men in nursing frequently report that despite being a distinct minority, their opinions and ideas are often given more weight than they should be because of their gender.
- brighteyes 12y ago
  Actually no, men in nursing are discriminated against and have it pretty hard. See for example this link: http://www.minoritynurse.com/article/men-nursing http://www.minoritynurse.com/article/men-nursing > studies have shown that male student nurses experience additional barriers and discrimination, such as: lack of information and support from guidance counselors; lack of sufficient role models; unequal clinical opportunities and requirements; isolation; poor instruction on the appropriate use of touch; and a lack of teaching strategies appropriate to male learning needs. See also the section headline "Why Men Do Not Pursue Nursing" which goes into more detail in the difficulties they face.
  - Fomite 12y ago
    There are definitely some pretty serious barriers - the male nurses I've talked to reported some of them and that their opinions seem to carry more weight. They're not mutually exclusive. The most common negative complaint I've heard is that, despite being nurses, they often get cast as "muscle", holding down patients and the like, which is both dangerous (struggling patients, needlestick, etc.) and also pretty antithetical to the reasons most nurses chose their profession.
- barry-cotter 12y ago
  Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, especially if you can't be bothered to look. http://lesswrong.com/lw/ih/absence_of_evidence_is_evidence_of_absence/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/ih/absence_of_evidence_is_evidence_o... Please think of what it would mean for your argument to be true before clicking through to the above link.
DanBC 12y ago
> Can someone explain to me why 90% women graduating in healthcare is not considered a gender gap but 90% men graduating in compsci is? Someone mentions this every single time these threads appear. There are programmes to get men into nursing and education and other employment. There are programmes to get women into construction and etc.
A_COMPUTER 12y ago
As a matter of fact I have seen feminists address this frequently. A common interpretation is that Patriarchy has "feminized" professions such as teaching and nursing, because they can be seen as "caretaker"-type jobs; and consequently, have left the occupants of these jobs underappreciated and underpaid. The feminist manner of "fixing" the gender gap in these professions would be by deconstructing Patriarchal social perceptions of these fields.
- tomp 12y ago
  I don't think this has anything to do with patriarchy, but rather with capitalism; "caretaker"-type jobs simply aren't generating enough short-term, individualised returns to make them worth a bigger paycheck; even if the society values these kinds of jobs, it values capitalism more, and capitalism puts almost no value on things that have no measurable profit. This also explains why some people are concerned about the shortage of programers in general, and shortage of women programers in particular - programming is a high-paying job, so they feel they are supporting a just cause if they are encouraging people to learn programming. Noone feels the same about construction/garbagemen (male-dominated professions) or nursing/cleaning (female-dominated professions), so it can't be something to do with Patriarchy.
  - steanne 12y ago
    actually, there's a pretty strong push to get women into AEC (architecture, engineering, and construction) fields. http://www.new-nyc.org/pages/become.html http://www.new-nyc.org/pages/become.html http://www.pwcusa.org/ http://www.pwcusa.org/ http://www.nawic.org/nawic/default.asp http://www.nawic.org/nawic/default.asp http://www.wcoeusa.org/ http://www.wcoeusa.org/
    - tomp 12y ago
      But probably not to work as manual labor on construction sites...
      - drabbiticus 12y ago
dominotw 12y ago
>Can someone explain to me why 90% women graduating in healthcare is not considered a gender gap but 90% men graduating in compsci is? are we doing this again. sigh.

by ffn 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

brighteyes 12y ago

For nursing, see this for example about efforts to get more men into the field http://www.minoritynurse.com/article/men-nursing http://www.minoritynurse.com/article/men-nursing > Despite efforts from nursing schools across the nation to recruit and retain more men and minorities, the results have been fairly modest.

whyenot 12y ago

> Why isn't anyone pushing to have more men go into K-12 education, nursing, etc.? Did you bother to look, or did you just assume this was the case? http://www.edutopia.org/male-teacher-shortage http://www.edutopia.org/male-teacher-shortage http://aamn.org/choosenursing.shtml http://aamn.org/choosenursing.shtml

visualR 12y ago
What I think the point was there is no outrage in the blogosphere/twitterverse about the shortage of male nurses.
- gtremper 12y ago
  I think both issues are symptoms of the same underlying problem.
- Macha 12y ago
  Are the blogs of IT people or of nurses more likely to be posted here? Which group is more likely to share their opinions of their work life online in the first people? I've certainly heard friends in nursing mention this to me in real life.
- Fomite 12y ago
  The internet is a big place - it's pretty easy to find pieces on the shortage of male nurses, including peer reviewed papers and articles by professional organizations.

Fomite 12y ago

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, especially if you can't be bothered to look. For both teaching and nursing, there is an acute concern about the lack of men, as role models for boys in school, and in basically any healthcare profession besides "Doctor". It should be noted however that unlike the common experience of women in CS, men in nursing frequently report that despite being a distinct minority, their opinions and ideas are often given more weight than they should be because of their gender.

brighteyes 12y ago
Actually no, men in nursing are discriminated against and have it pretty hard. See for example this link: http://www.minoritynurse.com/article/men-nursing http://www.minoritynurse.com/article/men-nursing > studies have shown that male student nurses experience additional barriers and discrimination, such as: lack of information and support from guidance counselors; lack of sufficient role models; unequal clinical opportunities and requirements; isolation; poor instruction on the appropriate use of touch; and a lack of teaching strategies appropriate to male learning needs. See also the section headline "Why Men Do Not Pursue Nursing" which goes into more detail in the difficulties they face.
- Fomite 12y ago
  There are definitely some pretty serious barriers - the male nurses I've talked to reported some of them and that their opinions seem to carry more weight. They're not mutually exclusive. The most common negative complaint I've heard is that, despite being nurses, they often get cast as "muscle", holding down patients and the like, which is both dangerous (struggling patients, needlestick, etc.) and also pretty antithetical to the reasons most nurses chose their profession.
barry-cotter 12y ago
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, especially if you can't be bothered to look. http://lesswrong.com/lw/ih/absence_of_evidence_is_evidence_of_absence/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/ih/absence_of_evidence_is_evidence_o... Please think of what it would mean for your argument to be true before clicking through to the above link.

DanBC 12y ago

> Can someone explain to me why 90% women graduating in healthcare is not considered a gender gap but 90% men graduating in compsci is? Someone mentions this every single time these threads appear. There are programmes to get men into nursing and education and other employment. There are programmes to get women into construction and etc.

A_COMPUTER 12y ago

As a matter of fact I have seen feminists address this frequently. A common interpretation is that Patriarchy has "feminized" professions such as teaching and nursing, because they can be seen as "caretaker"-type jobs; and consequently, have left the occupants of these jobs underappreciated and underpaid. The feminist manner of "fixing" the gender gap in these professions would be by deconstructing Patriarchal social perceptions of these fields.

tomp 12y ago
I don't think this has anything to do with patriarchy, but rather with capitalism; "caretaker"-type jobs simply aren't generating enough short-term, individualised returns to make them worth a bigger paycheck; even if the society values these kinds of jobs, it values capitalism more, and capitalism puts almost no value on things that have no measurable profit. This also explains why some people are concerned about the shortage of programers in general, and shortage of women programers in particular - programming is a high-paying job, so they feel they are supporting a just cause if they are encouraging people to learn programming. Noone feels the same about construction/garbagemen (male-dominated professions) or nursing/cleaning (female-dominated professions), so it can't be something to do with Patriarchy.
- steanne 12y ago
  actually, there's a pretty strong push to get women into AEC (architecture, engineering, and construction) fields. http://www.new-nyc.org/pages/become.html http://www.new-nyc.org/pages/become.html http://www.pwcusa.org/ http://www.pwcusa.org/ http://www.nawic.org/nawic/default.asp http://www.nawic.org/nawic/default.asp http://www.wcoeusa.org/ http://www.wcoeusa.org/
  - tomp 12y ago
    But probably not to work as manual labor on construction sites...
    - drabbiticus 12y ago

dominotw 12y ago

>Can someone explain to me why 90% women graduating in healthcare is not considered a gender gap but 90% men graduating in compsci is? are we doing this again. sigh.