7 ms·

Fantastic! I remember reading this a couple of years ago and saying "huh, that's cool" but I make games now and it's much more interesting to read having had to

by krisgee 12y ago

Fantastic! I remember reading this a couple of years ago and saying "huh, that's cool" but I make games now and it's much more interesting to read having had to write shaders and make similar sorts of compromises, I especially like the closest source shadows and semi-dynamic tassles on the spears. On a less technical note it's amazing how going with the cell-shaded look has made the game age so well even the original non-HD gamecube game still looks great today.

bane 12y ago
Also interesting is that the game is having something of a resurgence. IIR it wasn't as well met when it was first released, but it's grown on the community and is really being held up today as a classic.
- macspoofing 12y ago
  Yep. It was the wrong game for that time. Gamecube and Nintendo were fighting a "kiddie" image, and people were expecting a Ocarina of Time look especially since two years prior Nintendo showed off a great concept demo[1]. People really wanted that game. So when Windwaker was announced it was a big let-down and had minimal cultural impact (even though it was a critical and financial success). In fact, it seemed like the entire Gamecube era can be defined by Nintendo trying something different and kinda being punished for it due to preconceived expectations. Things like FPS Metroid instead of 3rd person Metroid. Mario Sunshine instead of Mario 64 2. Mario Kart Double Dash instead of regular Mario Kart 64 2. Donkey Kong Jungle Beat instead of proper 2D Donkey Kong Country. And of course WindWaker. It's no surprise that some of those games became cult favorites even though they didn't resonate at the time. They were good games, but wrong for the time. Sometimes it pays to give people what they want. // Nintendo is actually pretty clueless with market trends in general. Sometimes that's ok, but sometimes it hurts them greatly (e.g. sticking with the cartridge format one generation too long - which I think is THE reason why Sony owned the console market until the PS3 era. No DVD on Gamecube which did hurt their sales in the US. Ignoring online gaming until well into the Wii generation, and even then being clueless about it for many years. No answer to Xbox Live/PS Network. Missing the HD era by a generation - though they got really really lucky with the Wii _initially_). More recently, a Nintendo exec couldn't understand why people would want to watch streamed games[2]!) --- [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBtAvX4Pkyk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBtAvX4Pkyk [2] http://www.gamespot.com/articles/e3-2014-wii-u-s-lack-of-twitch-streaming-due-to-nintendo-not-finding-it-fun/1100-6420437/ http://www.gamespot.com/articles/e3-2014-wii-u-s-lack-of-twi...
  - JoshTriplett 12y ago
    > In fact, it seemed like the entire Gamecube era can be defined by Nintendo trying something different and kinda being punished for it due to preconceived expectations. Things like FPS Metroid instead of 3rd person Metroid. Mario Sunshine instead of Mario 64 2. Mario Kart Double Dash instead of regular Mario Kart 64 2. Donkey Kong Jungle Beat instead of proper 2D Donkey Kong Country. And of course WindWaker. Don't forget launching with a Luigi title rather than a Mario title. And the funny thing is, most of those are great games: Wind Waker, Metroid Prime, and Luigi's Mansion are all quite good because they broke the usual formula. Trying something different is a risk; you might get something much better than formula by adding some variety, or you might get an utter flop. But I'll take that over something completely formulaic.
    - WWLink 12y ago
      The funny part for me was how after I got into windwaker, I immediately thought it was my favorite zelda game lol. Kinda glad to see the tide turn :) OoT was pretty epic too, but WW is more fun to play. Maybe I just like the whole sailing+pirates thing too much.
      - Justsignedup 12y ago
        The long sea voyages could have been done better. But the game felt and played fantastic. I had more fun with it than with the next one. When Twilight Princess came out, I felt "omg finally, no more cell shading" but later on I realized that the gameplay was a step backwards from Wind Waker. Except for the incredibly long traveling times of WW.
  - Tycho 12y ago
    I think Windwaker was ultimately hurt more because they rushed it out for a November/December release. Allegedly they had to cut two whole dungeons from the final game, so nobody was going to say 'this is the best Zelda ever!' Nintendo adopt puzzling strategies at times, but I'd be wary of second guessing them. Everyone criticised the decision to stick with cartridges, but let's not forget that every other vendor except Sony that tried switching to CD-ROMs basically went out of business. Likewise, the Wii was slated when people saw the Gamecube-level specs with no HD, but then it was successful beyond anyone's wildest expectations.
- pyre 12y ago
  I got it when it came out, and while I was disappointed that it wasn't basically 'Ocarina of Time' on better hardware (which was known well in advance of release), I really enjoyed the game. I'm glad that it has held up well. I'm guessing that the only things that haven't held up well are the GameCube <=> GameBoy Advance features of the game.
  - krisgee 12y ago
    The tingle tuner was a pile of junk but it did make some very interesting speed running stuff possible.
jafaku 12y ago
Kind of offtopic: As a professional of web development and operations with ~10 years of exp... Any ideas where I should start if I want to learn game development? I want to be able to create something by myself, like the Dwarf Fortress guys. Not sure if something with better graphics is even possible as a one man project. Where else can I ask this question without being treated like a noob or a "gimme teh code plz" beggar?
- krisgee 12y ago
  I'm almost 100% sure others will disagree but I'd say start with Unity. The most important thing is getting something small done to give you a taste of what's involved and then you can dig deeper and develop Opinions and eventually go pick a new engine/roll your own. I definitely do not recommend trying to roll your own engine at first because you'll never get a game done.
  - eloisant 12y ago
    Actually as someone who also did mostly web development professionally before starting games as a hobby, I think it's better to start by coding a small game without any engine (like a shooter or a platformer) to fully understand the concepts like game loop, FPS, sprites, etc. Then only you can move to using an engine and you'll understand better what's going on. That's especially true for someone who already knows programming, the answer would be different for someone who had no programming experience.
    - krapp 12y ago
      I'm taking tutorials for game making in SDL2 to expand my knowledge of C++, and because i've had an interest in game design for a while. I'm certainly learning a lot more than I ever did playing around with Game Maker..
      - girvo 12y ago
        Hey, don't knock it. I learnt to program in GML; to the point where I built a 3D game out of Game Maker, pretty much using the UI as a glorified level editor, rather than using its proper actions. Taught me heaps :) Nowadays, I'm a web dev, but I build games in my spare time, and have lately been doing it with Canvas/Javascript. Just like SDL it takes some of the finicky bits out of your way, but is still pretty low level somewhat.
NDizzle 12y ago
I just started playing this for the first time last night. I'm playing the Wii U HD edition. It looks amazing, and one of the first things that stood out to me was the red cloth on the spears. I spent about 5 minutes in a barrel last night just watching the guards swoosh around their spears. My guess was that was added for the Wii U edition - but apparently I'm way wrong. Incredible looking game!
- DoggettCK 12y ago
  I envy you right now, getting to play it for the first time. Wind Waker is on my list of games I play once a year, up there with Grim Fandango and Mega Man 2.
- WWLink 12y ago
  Yeah those look cool, and nope those were in the gamecube version too. fwiw you can usually pick those spears up after you beat the guards lol
- dsuth 12y ago
  It always did look amazing. To be honest every new Zelda since has seemed like a downgrade in terms of graphics and animation. Just wait till you get to swaying platforms over lava lakes!

by krisgee 12y ago

bane 12y ago

Also interesting is that the game is having something of a resurgence. IIR it wasn't as well met when it was first released, but it's grown on the community and is really being held up today as a classic.

macspoofing 12y ago
Yep. It was the wrong game for that time. Gamecube and Nintendo were fighting a "kiddie" image, and people were expecting a Ocarina of Time look especially since two years prior Nintendo showed off a great concept demo[1]. People really wanted that game. So when Windwaker was announced it was a big let-down and had minimal cultural impact (even though it was a critical and financial success). In fact, it seemed like the entire Gamecube era can be defined by Nintendo trying something different and kinda being punished for it due to preconceived expectations. Things like FPS Metroid instead of 3rd person Metroid. Mario Sunshine instead of Mario 64 2. Mario Kart Double Dash instead of regular Mario Kart 64 2. Donkey Kong Jungle Beat instead of proper 2D Donkey Kong Country. And of course WindWaker. It's no surprise that some of those games became cult favorites even though they didn't resonate at the time. They were good games, but wrong for the time. Sometimes it pays to give people what they want. // Nintendo is actually pretty clueless with market trends in general. Sometimes that's ok, but sometimes it hurts them greatly (e.g. sticking with the cartridge format one generation too long - which I think is THE reason why Sony owned the console market until the PS3 era. No DVD on Gamecube which did hurt their sales in the US. Ignoring online gaming until well into the Wii generation, and even then being clueless about it for many years. No answer to Xbox Live/PS Network. Missing the HD era by a generation - though they got really really lucky with the Wii _initially_). More recently, a Nintendo exec couldn't understand why people would want to watch streamed games[2]!) --- [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBtAvX4Pkyk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBtAvX4Pkyk [2] http://www.gamespot.com/articles/e3-2014-wii-u-s-lack-of-twitch-streaming-due-to-nintendo-not-finding-it-fun/1100-6420437/ http://www.gamespot.com/articles/e3-2014-wii-u-s-lack-of-twi...
- JoshTriplett 12y ago
  > In fact, it seemed like the entire Gamecube era can be defined by Nintendo trying something different and kinda being punished for it due to preconceived expectations. Things like FPS Metroid instead of 3rd person Metroid. Mario Sunshine instead of Mario 64 2. Mario Kart Double Dash instead of regular Mario Kart 64 2. Donkey Kong Jungle Beat instead of proper 2D Donkey Kong Country. And of course WindWaker. Don't forget launching with a Luigi title rather than a Mario title. And the funny thing is, most of those are great games: Wind Waker, Metroid Prime, and Luigi's Mansion are all quite good because they broke the usual formula. Trying something different is a risk; you might get something much better than formula by adding some variety, or you might get an utter flop. But I'll take that over something completely formulaic.
  - WWLink 12y ago
    The funny part for me was how after I got into windwaker, I immediately thought it was my favorite zelda game lol. Kinda glad to see the tide turn :) OoT was pretty epic too, but WW is more fun to play. Maybe I just like the whole sailing+pirates thing too much.
    - Justsignedup 12y ago
      The long sea voyages could have been done better. But the game felt and played fantastic. I had more fun with it than with the next one. When Twilight Princess came out, I felt "omg finally, no more cell shading" but later on I realized that the gameplay was a step backwards from Wind Waker. Except for the incredibly long traveling times of WW.
- Tycho 12y ago
  I think Windwaker was ultimately hurt more because they rushed it out for a November/December release. Allegedly they had to cut two whole dungeons from the final game, so nobody was going to say 'this is the best Zelda ever!' Nintendo adopt puzzling strategies at times, but I'd be wary of second guessing them. Everyone criticised the decision to stick with cartridges, but let's not forget that every other vendor except Sony that tried switching to CD-ROMs basically went out of business. Likewise, the Wii was slated when people saw the Gamecube-level specs with no HD, but then it was successful beyond anyone's wildest expectations.
pyre 12y ago
I got it when it came out, and while I was disappointed that it wasn't basically 'Ocarina of Time' on better hardware (which was known well in advance of release), I really enjoyed the game. I'm glad that it has held up well. I'm guessing that the only things that haven't held up well are the GameCube <=> GameBoy Advance features of the game.
- krisgee 12y ago
  The tingle tuner was a pile of junk but it did make some very interesting speed running stuff possible.

jafaku 12y ago

Kind of offtopic: As a professional of web development and operations with ~10 years of exp... Any ideas where I should start if I want to learn game development? I want to be able to create something by myself, like the Dwarf Fortress guys. Not sure if something with better graphics is even possible as a one man project. Where else can I ask this question without being treated like a noob or a "gimme teh code plz" beggar?

krisgee 12y ago
I'm almost 100% sure others will disagree but I'd say start with Unity. The most important thing is getting something small done to give you a taste of what's involved and then you can dig deeper and develop Opinions and eventually go pick a new engine/roll your own. I definitely do not recommend trying to roll your own engine at first because you'll never get a game done.
- eloisant 12y ago
  Actually as someone who also did mostly web development professionally before starting games as a hobby, I think it's better to start by coding a small game without any engine (like a shooter or a platformer) to fully understand the concepts like game loop, FPS, sprites, etc. Then only you can move to using an engine and you'll understand better what's going on. That's especially true for someone who already knows programming, the answer would be different for someone who had no programming experience.
  - krapp 12y ago
    I'm taking tutorials for game making in SDL2 to expand my knowledge of C++, and because i've had an interest in game design for a while. I'm certainly learning a lot more than I ever did playing around with Game Maker..
    - girvo 12y ago
      Hey, don't knock it. I learnt to program in GML; to the point where I built a 3D game out of Game Maker, pretty much using the UI as a glorified level editor, rather than using its proper actions. Taught me heaps :) Nowadays, I'm a web dev, but I build games in my spare time, and have lately been doing it with Canvas/Javascript. Just like SDL it takes some of the finicky bits out of your way, but is still pretty low level somewhat.

NDizzle 12y ago

I just started playing this for the first time last night. I'm playing the Wii U HD edition. It looks amazing, and one of the first things that stood out to me was the red cloth on the spears. I spent about 5 minutes in a barrel last night just watching the guards swoosh around their spears. My guess was that was added for the Wii U edition - but apparently I'm way wrong. Incredible looking game!

DoggettCK 12y ago
I envy you right now, getting to play it for the first time. Wind Waker is on my list of games I play once a year, up there with Grim Fandango and Mega Man 2.
WWLink 12y ago
Yeah those look cool, and nope those were in the gamecube version too. fwiw you can usually pick those spears up after you beat the guards lol
dsuth 12y ago
It always did look amazing. To be honest every new Zelda since has seemed like a downgrade in terms of graphics and animation. Just wait till you get to swaying platforms over lava lakes!