4 ms·

Not adopted by a standards body is a pretty significant factor. It is also proprietary in that Google is in absolute control of the development process.

by gress 12y ago

spankalee 12y ago
I think anyone can participate in the ECMA TC52 meetings. I'm not sure about membership in ECMA, I think there other requirements.
- gress 12y ago
  There appears to be no activity or information about this process that is publicly available.
  - spankalee 12y ago
    That's a very legitimate complaint. Gilad Bracha sometimes posts updates[1] to the Dart mailing lists, but I'm not familiar with ECMA, or if it has a standard way of posting information and updates about technical committee work. I'll raise it with the team and see if we can have a place to post upcoming meetings, agendas, minutes, and decisions and draft specifications. It'd also be nice to have a way, besides the issue tracker (which like all issue trackers can seem like a black hole for issues for some people) to propose items for upcoming meetings. I find Python's PEP to be a pretty nice system. [1]: https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/forum/#!searchin/misc/tc52%7Csort:date/misc/Oh_OSjx_Go0/AjntJpNp6w0J https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/forum/#!searchin/mi...
nknighthb 12y ago
Pretty significant factor in what? Write down all the reasonably popular programming languages you can think of. How many have been adopted by a standards body? How many have been adopted by a standards body in their current form? I hardly ever write code in a standardized language. Actually, I don't think I know anyone who writes code in a standardized language, because nontrivial programs in "standardized" languages almost always go outside the strict confines of whatever mediocre crap some committee adopted.
- gress 12y ago
  C, C++, JavaScript, Java, Fortran Only the vast majority of all commercial code ever written.
  - spankalee 12y ago
    Those are all examples of languages that started off as proprietary, just like Dart.
  - nknighthb 12y ago
    You've just proven my point while cleverly but unsuccessfully trying to avoid being responsive to my inquiry. Java was never adopted in any form by a standards body, three of the remaining four are an already-small and ever-shrinking share of the industry, and ECMAScript is never up to date with the latest developments in JavaScript.
    - gress 12y ago
      Even if you are right, and I'd only grant you that I am partially wrong about java because the JCP has collapsed since the Oracle takeover - the rest are just you adding qualifiers to minimize the contradiction, so what? Your position is simply to dismiss the value of standards and state that it's fine that Dart is proprietary. Also your statement about ECMAScript is flat out disingenuous. JavaScript implementations may move ahead between ECMAScript standards, but it is standardized, and by a real cross-industry group, not just a rubber stamp from one company. It is hard to take seriously an assertion that the level of standardization between Dart and JavaScript is comparable.
      - nknighthb 12y ago
        Nobody made that assertion. You made an assertion that standardization is "a pretty significant factor". You've yet to clarify what it's a significant factor in, nor have you provided evidence that it is, in fact, significant. I also didn't state that it's fine that Dart is proprietary, and I'd appreciate you not putting words in my mouth. My position is that your premise is incorrect and Dart is not proprietary.

Not adopted by a standards body is a pretty significant factor. It is also proprietary in that Google is in absolute control of the development process.

by gress 12y ago

Not adopted by a standards body is a pretty significant factor. It is also proprietary in that Google is in absolute control of the development process.

spankalee 12y ago

I think anyone can participate in the ECMA TC52 meetings. I'm not sure about membership in ECMA, I think there other requirements.

gress 12y ago
There appears to be no activity or information about this process that is publicly available.
- spankalee 12y ago
  That's a very legitimate complaint. Gilad Bracha sometimes posts updates[1] to the Dart mailing lists, but I'm not familiar with ECMA, or if it has a standard way of posting information and updates about technical committee work. I'll raise it with the team and see if we can have a place to post upcoming meetings, agendas, minutes, and decisions and draft specifications. It'd also be nice to have a way, besides the issue tracker (which like all issue trackers can seem like a black hole for issues for some people) to propose items for upcoming meetings. I find Python's PEP to be a pretty nice system. [1]: https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/forum/#!searchin/misc/tc52%7Csort:date/misc/Oh_OSjx_Go0/AjntJpNp6w0J https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/forum/#!searchin/mi...

nknighthb 12y ago

Pretty significant factor in what? Write down all the reasonably popular programming languages you can think of. How many have been adopted by a standards body? How many have been adopted by a standards body in their current form? I hardly ever write code in a standardized language. Actually, I don't think I know anyone who writes code in a standardized language, because nontrivial programs in "standardized" languages almost always go outside the strict confines of whatever mediocre crap some committee adopted.

gress 12y ago
C, C++, JavaScript, Java, Fortran Only the vast majority of all commercial code ever written.
- spankalee 12y ago
  Those are all examples of languages that started off as proprietary, just like Dart.
- nknighthb 12y ago
  You've just proven my point while cleverly but unsuccessfully trying to avoid being responsive to my inquiry. Java was never adopted in any form by a standards body, three of the remaining four are an already-small and ever-shrinking share of the industry, and ECMAScript is never up to date with the latest developments in JavaScript.
  - gress 12y ago
    Even if you are right, and I'd only grant you that I am partially wrong about java because the JCP has collapsed since the Oracle takeover - the rest are just you adding qualifiers to minimize the contradiction, so what? Your position is simply to dismiss the value of standards and state that it's fine that Dart is proprietary. Also your statement about ECMAScript is flat out disingenuous. JavaScript implementations may move ahead between ECMAScript standards, but it is standardized, and by a real cross-industry group, not just a rubber stamp from one company. It is hard to take seriously an assertion that the level of standardization between Dart and JavaScript is comparable.
    - nknighthb 12y ago
      Nobody made that assertion. You made an assertion that standardization is "a pretty significant factor". You've yet to clarify what it's a significant factor in, nor have you provided evidence that it is, in fact, significant. I also didn't state that it's fine that Dart is proprietary, and I'd appreciate you not putting words in my mouth. My position is that your premise is incorrect and Dart is not proprietary.