4 ms·

I've seen a fair number of comments assuming malfeasance here, so I'm just gonna note an actual news article about this. From http://www.npr.org/templates/story

I've seen a fair number of comments assuming malfeasance here, so I'm just gonna note an actual news article about this. From http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=321783982 http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=3217839... > The IRS said technicians went to great lengths trying to recover data from Lerner's computer in 2011. In emails provided by the IRS, technicians said they sent the computer to a forensic lab run by the agency's criminal investigations unit. But to no avail. > The IRS was able to generate 24,000 Lerner emails from the 2009 to 2011 because Lerner had copied in other IRS employees. The agency said it pieced together the emails from the computers of 82 other IRS employees. So, reading between the lines here, it looks like the IRS doesn't archive email at the server level, and any copies of mail were retrieved from individual workstations. I don't see conspiracy here. I see incompetent IT processes and a lack of mandated data retention policies. Maybe I'm predisposed to employ Hanlon's razor, but that's only because I've found it to be the best explanation for most situations like this. If it was a coverup, it's a terrible one.

protomyth 12y ago
They waited until Friday when the President is out of town and didn't mention this problem when the original document requests went out. I will look up the exact rules when I get back to work, but I do believe they have violated the e-mail handling rules. It's a fine coverup since what is the recourse? It's worked before, so why not now?
- meepmorp 12y ago
  > They waited until Friday when the President is out of town and didn't mention this problem when the original document requests went out. Yes, Friday news dumps are shitty. They're also standard practice in politics. The fact that it wasn't mentioned in the original document requests, though, might just be an extension of the aforementioned incompetence. > It's a fine coverup since what is the recourse? It's worked before, so why not now? What's worked before? Failing to keep the purported coverup secret and also turning over a large number of the purportedly destroyed documents because they were recoverable from other sources? If you're looking to see intentional bad behavior, fine. But this kind of digital stupidity happens all over. I've no doubt that corporate America is full of Exchange implementations with small mailbox limits and a reliance on PST files that are stored locally.
  - protomyth 12y ago
    "What's worked before?" Losing documents in all the other Congressional requests the last couple of years. Hell, a unrelated FOIA request produced documents for a news org that weren't given to the committee. There are no real consequences so why worry. If there was a problem and they didn't mention it in the original request then it is very close to criminal. I do believe the Official Records Act has been grossly violated at this point.
  - wdr1 12y ago
    > Yes, Friday news dumps are shitty. They're also standard practice in politics. The point being the IRS is supposed to be apolitical.
AndrewKemendo 12y ago
>I see incompetent IT processes and a lack of mandated data retention policies. Having worked in government for well over a decade now, I can tell you that this is undoubtedly the case. That is not to say all departments have poor practices, but on the whole there is no standardization and each organization does things differently. I have worked in offices that have NO server archive and everyone relies on PST's, and others where there are server archives but they are limited to 500MB or something small and they just start deleting items by date.
- rpgmaker 12y ago
  No, it is not "undoubtedly" the case. There would be a lot of incentives in "losing" those years of emails.
  - AndrewKemendo 12y ago
    I really do think Hanlon's razor applies here. I don't disagree that the incentive is there, but I think the total failure of the USG to do technology correctly is the more likely culprit. I can tell you from first hand experience that I know of very senior people who have lost months of data from what would be a simple migration or corrupted virtual instance. Boggles the mind really.
    - graylights 12y ago
      Agreed. A lot of it has to do how government contracts for IT support. Contracts quickly get out of date. The contractors are also all trying to lock themselves in. It's common for the contractor to own all the IT equipment and just lease it to the government. What happens when it's time to change contracts and every single computer, phone, printer has to be replaced. There is no possibility for competitive bidding in the wake of that.
      - niels_olson 12y ago
        Yep. This is the biggest unspoken scandal in government. It has probably taken years off of my life. The whole system is in shambles.
forrestthewoods 12y ago
Guilty of conspiracy to have willfully incompetent IT processes and policies for explicit purpose of plausible deniability? :)
graylights 12y ago
In my experience with Federal work, we had 50MB of server storage for email in 2013. Then there were the PPTs attachments placing some emails at 10MB and getting forwarded/replied with attachments multiple times. In effect everyone used local pst files or they were deleting emails as they read them. It's an awful system, but a lot of it has to do how government awards IT contracts and how quickly they are out of date.
- niels_olson 12y ago
  This. Anyone in federal government knows it's this. Not even a question.
tootie 12y ago
Maybe also not a priority. Unless there's some compliance regulations, why save emails forecer?
ninv 12y ago
>I don't see conspiracy here. Lois Lerner pleaded the fifth couple of months back. She is accused of harassing tea party donors. Lois Lerner in 2011: Receiving a Thick Questionnaire from the IRS Is a "Behavior Changer" http://patterico.com/2013/07/10/lois-lerner-in-2011-receiving-a-thick-questionnaire-from-the-irs-is-a-behavior-changer/ http://patterico.com/2013/07/10/lois-lerner-in-2011-receivin...
- jd75 12y ago
  Republicans cherry-picked the data. The IRS targeted liberal groups more, based on the information we have. http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2014/04/23/3429722/irs-records-tea-party/ http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2014/04/23/3429722/irs-rec...
InclinedPlane 12y ago
This might be a case of sufficiently advanced incompetence being indistinguishable from malice.

protomyth 12y ago

They waited until Friday when the President is out of town and didn't mention this problem when the original document requests went out. I will look up the exact rules when I get back to work, but I do believe they have violated the e-mail handling rules. It's a fine coverup since what is the recourse? It's worked before, so why not now?

meepmorp 12y ago
> They waited until Friday when the President is out of town and didn't mention this problem when the original document requests went out. Yes, Friday news dumps are shitty. They're also standard practice in politics. The fact that it wasn't mentioned in the original document requests, though, might just be an extension of the aforementioned incompetence. > It's a fine coverup since what is the recourse? It's worked before, so why not now? What's worked before? Failing to keep the purported coverup secret and also turning over a large number of the purportedly destroyed documents because they were recoverable from other sources? If you're looking to see intentional bad behavior, fine. But this kind of digital stupidity happens all over. I've no doubt that corporate America is full of Exchange implementations with small mailbox limits and a reliance on PST files that are stored locally.
- protomyth 12y ago
  "What's worked before?" Losing documents in all the other Congressional requests the last couple of years. Hell, a unrelated FOIA request produced documents for a news org that weren't given to the committee. There are no real consequences so why worry. If there was a problem and they didn't mention it in the original request then it is very close to criminal. I do believe the Official Records Act has been grossly violated at this point.
- wdr1 12y ago
  > Yes, Friday news dumps are shitty. They're also standard practice in politics. The point being the IRS is supposed to be apolitical.

AndrewKemendo 12y ago

>I see incompetent IT processes and a lack of mandated data retention policies. Having worked in government for well over a decade now, I can tell you that this is undoubtedly the case. That is not to say all departments have poor practices, but on the whole there is no standardization and each organization does things differently. I have worked in offices that have NO server archive and everyone relies on PST's, and others where there are server archives but they are limited to 500MB or something small and they just start deleting items by date.

rpgmaker 12y ago
No, it is not "undoubtedly" the case. There would be a lot of incentives in "losing" those years of emails.
- AndrewKemendo 12y ago
  I really do think Hanlon's razor applies here. I don't disagree that the incentive is there, but I think the total failure of the USG to do technology correctly is the more likely culprit. I can tell you from first hand experience that I know of very senior people who have lost months of data from what would be a simple migration or corrupted virtual instance. Boggles the mind really.
  - graylights 12y ago
    Agreed. A lot of it has to do how government contracts for IT support. Contracts quickly get out of date. The contractors are also all trying to lock themselves in. It's common for the contractor to own all the IT equipment and just lease it to the government. What happens when it's time to change contracts and every single computer, phone, printer has to be replaced. There is no possibility for competitive bidding in the wake of that.
    - niels_olson 12y ago
      Yep. This is the biggest unspoken scandal in government. It has probably taken years off of my life. The whole system is in shambles.

forrestthewoods 12y ago

Guilty of conspiracy to have willfully incompetent IT processes and policies for explicit purpose of plausible deniability? :)

graylights 12y ago

In my experience with Federal work, we had 50MB of server storage for email in 2013. Then there were the PPTs attachments placing some emails at 10MB and getting forwarded/replied with attachments multiple times. In effect everyone used local pst files or they were deleting emails as they read them. It's an awful system, but a lot of it has to do how government awards IT contracts and how quickly they are out of date.

niels_olson 12y ago
This. Anyone in federal government knows it's this. Not even a question.

tootie 12y ago

Maybe also not a priority. Unless there's some compliance regulations, why save emails forecer?

ninv 12y ago

>I don't see conspiracy here. Lois Lerner pleaded the fifth couple of months back. She is accused of harassing tea party donors. Lois Lerner in 2011: Receiving a Thick Questionnaire from the IRS Is a "Behavior Changer" http://patterico.com/2013/07/10/lois-lerner-in-2011-receiving-a-thick-questionnaire-from-the-irs-is-a-behavior-changer/ http://patterico.com/2013/07/10/lois-lerner-in-2011-receivin...

jd75 12y ago
Republicans cherry-picked the data. The IRS targeted liberal groups more, based on the information we have. http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2014/04/23/3429722/irs-records-tea-party/ http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2014/04/23/3429722/irs-rec...

InclinedPlane 12y ago

This might be a case of sufficiently advanced incompetence being indistinguishable from malice.